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¶2015 WC mHJ: Derek Drouin (Can) 7-8 (2.34) jump-off

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Dietmar239 View Post
    If we could just get him to time his arm-gather to coincide with his penultimate jump and plant he could easily be 2.43+.
    Facts not in evidence.
    I used to think that too, having learned at the (virtual) knee of Dwight Stones. But there are just too many arms-up-early jumpers who guide themselves over the bar. Watch how Drouin's hips follow the arc described by his lead arm, including the downward motion after the bar. If you tried to change his arm lead, it would mess with his timing. I most certainly teach a vigorous arm drive, but it has been proven (to me) to not be a necessity for everyone.

    and yes, only first place has a jump-off, unless lower places need to be differentiated for qualification purposes. In Florida, the top 4 advance in the post-season meets, so we frequently have jump-offs for 4th.
    Last edited by Atticus; 09-03-2015, 01:21 PM.

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    • #62
      I have no problem with a single-arm take-off. In fact, that is what I used when I competed eons ago and succesful one-arm jumpers like Dietmar Mogenburg, Jimmy Howard and Bondarenko come to mind. However, there are ways of guiding one self with a single-arm trajectory that can make a big difference. They used their outside arm to drive up and across the body to aid with conversion to the vertical and the arm was 'stabbed' upwards at the plant not before. The exaggerated arm swing followed by a step or two prior to the penultimate step is inefficient at best, whether you are using two or a single-arm approach. It's the equivalent of turning on the oven an hour before its time to bake cookies.
      If you're ever walking down the beach and you see a girl dressed in a bikini made out of seashells, and you pick her up and hold her to your ear, you can hear her scream.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Dietmar239 View Post
        The exaggerated arm swing followed by a step or two prior to the penultimate step is inefficient at best, whether you are using two or a single-arm approach. It's the equivalent of turning on the oven an hour before its time to bake cookies.
        Yes, that's what we are talking about. I don't he will ever fix it although he certainly loses speed. He's 25 now and it's probably too ingrained.
        Meyfarth did excactly the same in 1972 but she changed it later. However, Drouin has changed his run-up a tiny bit this year. Last year he walked into his 9 stride run-up and now he jogs into it. Obviously to gain speed.
        With Barshim It seems to me that up to Eugene he got into his terrific arch position earlier in the jump. Now he is lower and tries to save jumps by a last second hip raise.
        Bondarenko was not far off in Beijing, I thought, maybe rusty. Yes, I don't like Kynard's run-up or jumping either. New this year is some kind of ultra short, galloping stride he employs 2 or 3 strides out. I am waiting for Duffield. Zhang Guowei spreads his knees way too much over the bar. Leaves very little time to clear the calves.

        I have no idea what happened in Zurich today. Maybe Drouin got injured.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by dukehjsteve View Post
          I'm a HJ official so I should know the answer to this question, but just to check...

          If there is a required jumpoff with 3 or more persons tied ( like we just had in the Worlds), is it correct that the only thing to be decided in the jumpoff is the winner, and the other 2 or more remain tied for 2nd ? That's the way it is in golf, and believe the same is true here. Correct ? This did not come in to play at the Worlds as the other 2 guys both missed after Drouin made it; but if one of them had made it too, then the only guy that missed would still be guaranteed no worse than a tie for 2nd even though he was eliminated form the jumpoff.
          Yes and No. There is only a jump off for first place. But if, say, Zhang had cleared 2.34 in the jump-off, the jump-off would have continued with him and Drouin going for 2.36. In that scenario Bondareko would have been 3rd and Drouin or Zhang would have been first or second. They each would have been credited with their highest jump including jump-off.
          You will be credited with your top result included the jump from the jump-off.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Dietmar239 View Post
            The exaggerated arm swing followed by a step or two prior to the penultimate step is inefficient at best, whether you are using two or a single-arm approach. It's the equivalent of turning on the oven an hour before its time to bake cookies.
            I must point out that what you are calling 'inefficient at best' has guided this jumper to a World Championship and a 7-10.5 (2.40) PR. While I do not believe that just because someone achieves success with an 'unorthodox' approach, dictates what everyone else should emulate, but I have learned in my 25 years of coaching that it is almost always the 'idiosyncrasy' of the athlete's timing that does result in his individual success. in this case, that boils down to 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' and I firmly believe he could not jump any higher if you 'fixed' his lead arm, and would almost guarantee he could not do as well.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Per Andersen View Post
              Yes and No. There is only a jump off for first place. But if, say, Zhang had cleared 2.34 in the jump-off, the jump-off would have continued with him and Drouin going for 2.36. In that scenario Bondareko would have been 3rd and Drouin or Zhang would have been first or second. They each would have been credited with their highest jump including jump-off.
              You will be credited with your top result included the jump from the jump-off.
              and to clarify, once Bondy was out, if Drouin and Zhang decided to callit quits, it could have ended up with a 2-way tie for gold.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by gh View Post
                and to clarify, once Bondy was out, if Drouin and Zhang decided to callit quits, it could have ended up with a 2-way tie for gold.
                That's what I was asking. IAAF rules must allow that, but other rule-books do not. A tie MUST be broken in HS (and, as I recall, NCAA).

                Did D and Z know this? I'm OK with sharing a gold!

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                • #68
                  I believe in ties.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Atticus View Post
                    That's what I was asking. IAAF rules must allow that, but other rule-books do not. A tie MUST be broken in HS (and, as I recall, NCAA).

                    Did D and Z know this? I'm OK with sharing a gold!
                    Drouin would never have gone for a tie and I don't think Bondarenko would either.
                    Drouin felt that this was his big chance to win a Major since he really felt that in this meet he was the best jumper.

                    When they changed the rules before the 2010 season it seemed clear that the idea wasn't that a tie for 1st place in a Major or a championship was likely to occur. Easy to avoid by specifying before a competition that there will be a jump-off for first place.

                    After Kuchina and Licwinko infamously declined the jump-off I read reports indicating that Kuchina had misunderstood and really had wanted the jump-off.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Atticus View Post
                      I must point out that what you are calling 'inefficient at best' has guided this jumper to a World Championship and a 7-10.5 (2.40) PR. While I do not believe that just because someone achieves success with an 'unorthodox' approach, dictates what everyone else should emulate, but I have learned in my 25 years of coaching that it is almost always the 'idiosyncrasy' of the athlete's timing that does result in his individual success. in this case, that boils down to 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' and I firmly believe he could not jump any higher if you 'fixed' his lead arm, and would almost guarantee he could not do as well.
                      How do you know that it is almost always the 'idiosyncrasy' of the athlete's timing that does result in his individual success?

                      We are not talking of fixing Drouin's lead arm as it is just fine. It's all about the early take-back of his arms during the run-up. He spends 2 strides of his 9 stride run-up with both arms almost straight back before getting into his take-off. True, it is probably not worth trying to change that at this point. However, it's not unreasonable to think he could be even more efficient with a more "orthodox" use of his arms in the run-up.
                      Every idiosyncrasy is not worth fixing but there is a borderline and I think Drouin's use of his arms come close.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Per Andersen View Post
                        A. it's not unreasonable to think he could be even more efficient with a more "orthodox" use of his arms in the run-up.
                        B. Every idiosyncrasy is not worth fixing but there is a borderline and I think Drouin's use of his arms come close.
                        A. Concur. But it's also reasonable to think he would not jump higher with your fix.
                        B. We have common ground there also. Some 'oddities' should definietly be addressed. I would not teach Drouin's arm carriage, but I would also not try to fix it after the first year or two. Some athletes just need their eccentricity to perform well.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Atticus View Post
                          A. Concur. But it's also reasonable to think he would not jump higher with your fix.
                          B. We have common ground there also. Some 'oddities' should definietly be addressed. I would not teach Drouin's arm carriage, but I would also not try to fix it after the first year or two. Some athletes just need their eccentricity to perform well.
                          I'm only referring to the biomechanics. Whether an athlete is married to a particular technique was not my original point. I realize he will never fix this, but improvement is the name of the game. This is why athletes often sit with people to discuss the biomechanics to get that little edge.

                          His one-arm trajectory is fine with me, but the timing of it is what irks me. If you watch in slow-motion, he gathers with his arms and then they pause mid-chest. He then thrusts upwards as a second step. However, if he went straight from the gather to the arm-thrust I feel he would have more vertical lift. The pause negates the gather. OR, he could just thrust with the one-arm (ala Bondarenko, Howard, Mogenburg) without the gather and still not rob himself of momentum.

                          Whether this would improve him as a jumper remains to be seen, but no harm in looking at the science involved. It's that thin line between new jumper and old jumper when it's nice to sometimes inject small tweaks that won't disrupt his performances.
                          If you're ever walking down the beach and you see a girl dressed in a bikini made out of seashells, and you pick her up and hold her to your ear, you can hear her scream.

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                          • #73
                            Playing Philadelphia Lawyer here, in a HS or NCAA meet, suppose 2 people tied for 1st REFUSE to jump any more ? What happens then ?! Are they DQ'd ?!

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Dietmar239 View Post

                              If you watch in slow-motion, he gathers with his arms and then they pause mid-chest. He then thrusts upwards as a second step. However, if he went straight from the gather to the arm-thrust I feel he would have more vertical lift. The pause negates the gather. OR, he could just thrust with the one-arm (ala Bondarenko, Howard, Mogenburg) without the gather and still not rob himself of momentum.
                              That's exactly it! The pause also negates his double arm backsweep 3 steps out.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Per Andersen View Post
                                That's exactly it! The pause also negates his double arm backsweep 3 steps out.
                                Very astute. Spot on, Per.
                                If you're ever walking down the beach and you see a girl dressed in a bikini made out of seashells, and you pick her up and hold her to your ear, you can hear her scream.

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