???

[DJG]

???

[beebee]

If Bromell can get healthy next year perhaps he can be America's lead off guy.

Rodgers and Gay are done...I hope.

[ATK]

Can the US keep that foursome intact for next year? Not likely. But for now the US women are on a roll, winning medals and cashing relay checks.

Actually very likely. Felix and Bartoletta are already on the team as they are defending world champs. Bowie and Gardner just have to make the team.

[asindc]

Excellent breakdown.

[ATK]

Keep forgetting about the good WC wild card. 50% there. Hope they can stay healthy. Do they have to compete at the trials? I believe so. What happens if the have a bad day?
But you are right. The chances are good for next year.

Yea they have to compete in trials. Felix and Bartoletta can jog one round of the 100m if they wanted. Bowie and Gardner have to make the team. But yea baring injuries, all 4 should be in London.

[ATK]

Conclusion: the US men continue to self-destruct and USATF appears hopelessly helpless to prevent it. USATF Could not even schedule a practice meet to get these teams ready for RIO! The women overcame USATF's incompetence, the men, alas again, and again, could not.

In all honesty, I don't think there is anything that can be done at this point for the men. I don't think its a lack of practice or a lack of management or anything. It really just seems like bad luck. As you noted, the women have been able to get it around every year (sans 08/09) and have won their deserved gold or silver. I'm sure they don't do more practices and, as with the men, they didn't compete in a practice meet, and have the same coach etc. There really is no explanation for the men, and none needed.

[jazzcyclist]

I'll grade the exchanges.

• 1: A-, Felix got out hard and on time so that Bartoletta didn't have to slow down to make the pass, and they kept the baton moving. No time lost.
  2: B-, Felix had to slam on the brakes to make the pass which means that Gardener didn't get out like she should have, but she did stay on the inside of the lane this time, which she didn't do in the heat. 0.2-0.3s lost
  3: C, Bowie got out on time but she caused the baton to slow down by not getting hard and turning around like she was running a 4x400. 0.2-0.3s lost

If you want to see what an A+ exchange looks like, check out exchange #2 (Felix to Knight) at the 2012 Olympics. Though Bianca Knight didn't have the foot speed of the other team members, she did executed flawlessly. If you consider the fact the 1st and 2nd legs are the same as 2012, and that the foot speed of the anchors (Jeter and Bowie) is probably a wash, the only difference in foot speed is the 0.4s difference in the 3rd leg (Knight -11.13 and Gardener - 10.74). If Knight had Gardener's foot speed in 2012, they would have run 40.4 (40.82-0.4).

Similarly, if this year's team had passed like the 2012 team, they could have run 0.6s faster which translates to a time of 40.4 (41.01-0.6). 40.4 is what WR should be with four A-list sprinters and three grade A passes.

[jazzcyclist]

Can't agree, sorry.

Aren't you going to elaborate?

[ATK]

I can not accept that there is no explanation or that no one is held responsible. You posted the Flotrack video of the men's practice, where was the women's video? And in that video, the men were using a voice command saying stick for the hand to come back. Why didn't Rodges and Gatlin do that in the final? And as I posted above, there is no excuse for these guys not to know the rules. The men are head cases and they would rather screw up than lose to the Jamaicans, that's one possible explanation. Or they don't like each other because they are competing in the same events, 100 and 200, and they can't shift from competing to cooperating. As for the practice meet, I know that would make some difference, and in the women's case they would have been more aware and reminded what can happen if someone in another lane does the un-expected.

One thing and not sure if anyone noted it, but there seemed to be a last minute change. Based on the practice video from FloTrack, the order was supposed to be Bracy-Gatlin-Rodgers-Bromell. But Bracy was not used in the heats or final. They showed multiple handoffs from Rodgers to Bromell so it can be assumed that Rodgers had to change from 3rd to 1st last minute. That could be the reason, but I refuse to accept that they dont know the rules. As you noted, Roders was on the team that was DQ'ed in 2009 for the same thing.

I look at the US women the same way I look at the Jamaican team. We don't see them practice or compete as a team until the OG/WC and they put it together. So whatever they are doing must be working.

[ATK]

I'll grade the exchanges.

• 1: A-, Felix got out hard and on time so that Bartoletta didn't have to slow down to make the pass, and they kept the baton moving. No time lost.
  2: B-, Felix had to slam on the brakes to make the pass which means that Gardener didn't get out like she should have, but she did stay on the inside of the lane this time, which she didn't do in the heat. 0.2-0.3s lost
  3: C, Bowie got out on time but she caused the baton to slow down by not getting hard and turning around like she was running a 4x400. 0.2-0.3s lost

If you want to see what an A+ exchange looks like, check out exchange #2 (Felix to Knight) at the 2012 Olympics. Though Bianca Knight didn't have the foot speed of the other team members, she did executed flawlessly. If you consider the fact the 1st and 2nd legs are the same as 2012, and that the foot speed of the anchors (Jeter and Bowie) is probably a wash, the only difference in foot speed is the 0.4s difference in the 3rd leg (Knight -11.13 and Gardener - 10.74). If Knight had Gardener's foot speed in 2012, they would have run 40.4 (40.82-0.4).

Similarly, if this year's team had passed like the 2012 team, they could have run 0.6s faster which translates to a time of 40.4 (41.01-0.6). 40.4 is what WR should be with four A-list sprinters and three grade A passes.

What could have Bartoletta - Felix done different to make it an A/A+ in your opinion?
And how much do you factor lane 1 into the time, assuming they could execute three A+ passes?

[beebee]

The ladies...

41.77 practice run...no competition...amazing.

41.01 from lane one for gold...astonishing.

The men...

New blood desperately needed.

Let's have Lyle, Norman, Bromell and our fastest fourth dude be our national team for years to come...different yes, but same old has sucked far too long.
The old guys have failed miserably...fuck em.

[jazzcyclist]

What could have Bartoletta - Felix done different to make it an A/A+ in your opinion?

Stretch the zone just a bit more. There was room to do it.

[billychuck]

The ladies...

41.77 practice run...no competition...amazing.

41.01 from lane one for gold...astonishing.

The men...

New blood desperately needed.

Let's have Lyle, Norman, Bromell and our fastest fourth dude be our national team for years to come...different yes, but same old has sucked far too long.
The old guys have failed miserably...fuck em.

I have to agree with your summation of the ladies' excellence and the mens' futility. Yes, give the young guys the chance to build something. I can not stand to see Rodgers or Gay out there again. Even if they got the gold next August in London, which seems an incredible long shot at this point, it would not make up for YEARS of embarrassment.

[jazzcyclist]

DJG, I'm confused. At first you seem to imply that their exchanges had room for improvement:

As I have mentioned before the US women do not need perfect A+ handoffs to win or to break the WR.

You want perfect handoffs then stick with LSU squads that practice together often and run 8-10 races improving as they go.

Then you conclude with this:

So from my perspective, their exchanges are triple A plus. I would love to take that foursome to a diamond league meet in a couple of weeks if a 4x1 was on the schedule, clean up a few things and go after the WR

How can you give them a grade of A+ if you admit there's room for improvement, especially Bowie who was looking back when she should have been accelerating? What is there to clean up if they just got an A+?

My definition of A+ isn't "good enough", my definition of A+ is perfect. The outgoing runner should get out so hard that the incoming runner has to chase him/her to make the pass. I hate when I see the outgoing runner accelerating at half speed and wait until they receive the baton to hit the gas. When you accelerate at less than full speed, you're losing time. With a well-drilled team, it's not the outgoing runners' job to wait on the baton, it's the incoming runner's job to catch them. When sprinters execute with fear on a 4x100 relay, mistakes happen as we've seen it time and time again, and Bowie and Gardener executued with fear, not confidence. It's like they're hedging because they're afraid the incoming runner won't catch them before they're out of the zone. The hell with that. If your marks are properly placed, you leave on time and they catch you before the middle of the zone, it's because you're not running. I guarantee you that they practice at full speed, and the marks are determined by their full speed practice runs. Then when the lights are on and the fans are cheering, instead of running like they practice, some runners decide to hedge. Look at the third exchange in 2012 and compare it the third exchange in Rio. In London, Felix had to chase Bianca Knight, because Knight ran with no fear. She had the utmost faith the Felix would reach her in time. In Rio, Gardener got out out timidly which is why Felix had to slow down to avoid running past her in order to make the pass. I realize that national teams don't have as many opportunities to tweak things as college teams do, but neither do the Japanese or Chinese, but it doesn't stop them from passing like the best college teams.

Also, Ato Boldon said that Bowie looked shaky at practice, and that's not surprising considering how she looked in Rio and her lack of experience. Looking back in an Olympic 4x100 final is inexcusable, a cardinal sin, but I'm afraid that she and USATF will learn the wrong lesson from this. Don't think that all is well just because you got away with a rookie mistake. Question: If Bowie was really struggling in practice, should they have used her in the final just because of her superior footspeed?

Just my 2 cents.

[ATK]

What Jamaica does or doesn't do is not my concern. Their men have won 7 in a row, that is the streak I would like to end.

I referenced Jamaica because you asked about the women's relay practice video. Its irrelevant because, just like the Jamaicans, what they do or don't do is not our concern. they preform when they are supposed to.

But you noted:

As for the practice meet, I know that would make some difference, and in the women's case they would have been more aware and reminded what can happen if someone in another lane does the un-expected.

I don't care how much you practice, there is no way to prepare for a situation such as the one that occurred in Rio for the women.