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  • New York Times report

    I knew Alberto was a nut but the report on the front is devastating. It's like something out of East Germany in the 80s. Especially the pressure to do what you are told are else.

    Of course the question is did Kipchoge do this transfusion recently.

  • #2
    Stop me if you've heard this before...

    A large, wealthy and powerful corporation skirts the rules into possibly illegal behavior, employees have grave concerns but some keep quiet for financial reasons while others leave the organization over those issues, and as of yet there has been no penalty paid.

    Yup. We're still in America.
    Last edited by AyZiggy; 05-19-2017, 06:31 PM.

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    • #3
      Seems that your coach being paid by your main sponsor can lead to some conflict of interest problems.

      Other than that, I don't know why these athletes don't distance themselves from shady coaches much earlier when the see these warning signs. This guy apparently has an entire pharmacy in his basement, and the athletes don't see a problem with it until years later.

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      • #4
        It doesn't appear that AS ever did anything illegal (aka explicitly against the rules), but sure pushed the envelope to an unhealthy limit.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Atticus View Post
          It doesn't appear that AS ever did anything illegal (aka explicitly against the rules), but sure pushed the envelope to an unhealthy limit.
          Something that's never been done prior in the history of human athletic endeavors.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Atticus View Post
            It doesn't appear that AS ever did anything illegal (aka explicitly against the rules), but sure pushed the envelope to an unhealthy limit.

            Hmm...

            "Welling’s medical records showed a nearly 11,000 percent increase in her muscle L-carnitine levels after the infusion. For the antidoping officials, this was evidence of illicit performance enhancement."

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            • #7
              Originally posted by NotDutra5 View Post
              Something that's never been done prior in the history of human athletic endeavors.
              Unquestioned authority (or, in this case, fear of loss of livelihood for questioning authority) is indeed an old story, but unsettling in many (most?) cases like this.

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              • #8
                Of course the NYT will ignore things like coach Aden's adventures in Spain last summer, no follow up, no bold type, no casting aspersions.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Merner521 View Post
                  Seems that your coach being paid by your main sponsor can lead to some conflict of interest problems.

                  Other than that, I don't know why these athletes don't distance themselves from shady coaches much earlier when the see these warning signs. This guy apparently has an entire pharmacy in his basement, and the athletes don't see a problem with it until years later.
                  Money, fame, success. It's a tough sport to make a living from with a short window. If this is the way to making a living, and it's "legal," then all it comes down to is morality .

                  Look closely at any successful business and you'll find a million rationalizations of shady practices - some big, some small, but everyone does it.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by booond View Post
                    Money, fame, success. It's a tough sport to make a living from with a short window. If this is the way to making a living, and it's "legal," then all it comes down to is morality .

                    Look closely at any successful business and you'll find a million rationalizations of shady practices - some big, some small, but everyone does it.
                    But which other coaches of successful athletes have aspersions of illegality or "pushing the envelope" been applied to?
                    (I'll limit myself to US distance coaches!)

                    Vigil?
                    Gags?
                    Barker?
                    Schumacher?
                    Hickey (Efraimson's coach)?
                    Coogan?
                    Wetmore & Burroughs?

                    All---or none of the above?
                    Last edited by aaronk; 05-19-2017, 10:17 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Sorry about that comment...I get carried away sometimes...I was going to delete it myself.
                      Last edited by Conor Dary; 05-20-2017, 12:43 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by booond View Post
                        Money, fame, success. It's a tough sport to make a living from with a short window. If this is the way to making a living, and it's "legal," then all it comes down to is morality .

                        Look closely at any successful business and you'll find a million rationalizations of shady practices - some big, some small, but everyone does it.
                        I agree with the first part....ethics from reading this report seem to be in short supply at NOP. It's the first time I've actually been embarrassed to be an Oregon grad. And to top it off I also went to the University of Nottingham...a sad day all around.

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                        • #13
                          Would any one stay with AS with all this stuff coming out?

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                          • #14
                            I started reading and it seemed like there was not really anything new. It is a long piece and I started skimming, and I still had the impression that there is not really anything new here, they do not have something that they can go to WADA with as a full violation that will likely stand up at CAS. As I said, I started skimming after a while so people can comment on new stuff.

                            Also, sometimes statements can be misleading. A "10,000% increase" in a level that might have been exceedingly low (e.g., going from 0.01 to 1.0; maybe the range is from 0 to 5), so it is a number without context (and possibly especially so if the reason that it was given was that she was extremely depleted). If there was nearly as much 'there there' as has been implied by some, they would have moved much further along in two years or more. So, I am in the camp of those that think that he has pushed the envelop has hard as he can, trying to stay inside the bright lines of violation. Since his athletes get tested a lot, he cannot do what many can and probably do which is to go way over the line and figure that they will not be tested until levels have diminished. Clearly this has been a strategy with the evidence being the fairly high rate of positives from re-tests, much higher than the rate of positives in general.

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                            • #15
                              Nothing new...An infusion for over an hour....and all secret.

                              "Antidoping officials suggest that administering an infusion of less than 50 milliliters “continuously and uniformly over a one hour period is a practical impossibility and Dr. Brown knew this,” concluding that Ritzenhein “received 9.67 grams of L-carnitine over 1 hour, which demonstrates that Ritzenhein likely received an infusion far in excess of 50 mL.”

                              Perhaps it is all above board. Who can tell. The secrecy is bizarre and Nike is all powerful in athletics. But outside of track titles of stories in the Times "It doesn't sound legal, inside NOP" is why the sport is a punching bag and will only go downhill.
                              Last edited by Conor Dary; 05-20-2017, 03:15 PM.

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