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  • #31
    Re: Darkwing RIP

    >it may just be that the server is just temporarily not available.

    Nope - take a look:


    • #32
      Re: Darkwing RIP

      Thanks tafnut. I used the wrong word in "censorship" ... I should have stated that posters there say whatever, however, whenever, and do it without the risk of getting pulled. I agree with you, those types will not stay here long - by choice, or by force.


      • #33
        Re: Darkwing RIP

        >>it may just be that the server is just temporarily not available.

        >- take a look:

        When I first looked this morning, it just wasn't available.


        • #34
          Re: Darkwing RIP

          My favorite Darkwing post of all time was Jim Ryun's training log from the summer of 1966 -- about as inspiring as a training log can be. I still have a copy printed from a dot matrix printer.


          • #35
            Re: Darkwing RIP

            Walt is correct about the origins of t-and-f being with Charlie Mahler and Gustavus Adolphus College (Google tells me the email was [email protected]) and Williams hosting archive.


            • #36
              Re: Darkwing RIP

              Somebody made up t-shirts for [email protected] in the mid 90s. Some slogan about 'track around the world'. Meant to ID list members at track meets and such, although that was back when much of the list was the university crowd.


              • #37
                Re: Darkwing RIP

                >My favorite Darkwing post of all time was Jim Ryun's training log from the
                >summer of 1966 -- about as inspiring as a training log can be. I still have a
                >copy printed from a dot matrix printer.

                Can you re-post it somewhere?


                • #38
                  Re: Darkwing RIP

                  >My favorite Darkwing post of all time was

                  "Ode To Innocence, Parts I and II"


                  • #39
                    Re: Darkwing RIP

                    It was also 'insane'. Who but Ryun could have lived through 60-80 miles of almost all speedwork in one week? The numbers were unbelievable (almost literally).


                    • #40
                      Re: Darkwing RIP

                      It's extremely long - too long to post as a single message on this board - but perhaps I can do it in a few "chapters." By the way, if the original poster of the Jim Ryun log (I think it was actually an excerpt from a book by Bob Timmons) is out there, feel free to take the lead on this.


                      • #41
                        Re: Darkwing RIP

                        >Hulk, if you knew anything
                        >at all about working with numbers, you would know that is not an accurate

                        Hulk not need know about puny numbers! Hulk smash (or crunch) numbers! Statistics for wimps.


                        • #42
                          Re: Darkwing RIP

                          One of my favorite posts was from German 10000m runner Stephane Franke after the 1996 Olympics. He was the only guy that doubled in the 10k and 5k, and that was back when there were 10k heats as well. It's so rare to see elite runners posts, let alone, describe their race experience. Here's his post:

                          Von: Stephane Franke[SMTP:[email protected]]
                          Gesendet: Dienstag, 13. August 1996 15:19
                          An: '[email protected]'
                          Betreff: WG: A look back

                          Von: Stephane Franke[SMTP:[email protected]]
                          Gesendet: Dienstag, 13. August 1996 15:12
                          An: 't-and-f list'
                          Betreff: A look back

                          Hi to all listmembers,

                          since my left calf doesn't want me to run/race right now - I won't run in
                          Zurich and Cologne - I have some time to share some thoughts about the

                          No, don't worry, I won't mention anything about NBC, Dave Barry's sarcastic
                          piece says it all....

                          I was really relieved not to experience another crazy 2nd heat like in
                          Gothenburg, knnowing which time I had to run to qualify by time gave me a
                          lot of peace of mind and I tried to conserve as much energy as possible,
                          for example running on the inside lane and not making to many moves in the
                          first half of the race. It was an easy/comfortable race.
                          The Final was a different story of course, I wanted to run aggressively,
                          meaning I wanted to cover any move, that's why I followed Baldini and
                          Nizigama , especially Nizigama put in some surges from time to time, not
                          heavy ones ( 60-62 ), but 63/64 which sapped our energy except Haile G.,
                          Paul T. and Salah H. What happened after 14 laps was unbelievable, I tried
                          to go with the front group for a little bit, but I quickly realized that I
                          would only be able to hold on for one more lap without blowing up
                          completely, look at Worku B. who finished 17th but went out with the
                          leaders for several laps after 14 laps. I didn't feel great from 7-9k and
                          in the last km I gathered all my energy to run a fast last lap. Don't get
                          me wrong here, I wasn't sprinting to be the best European, I didn't care
                          about that at all at that moment, I just wanted to finish with the highest
                          placing possible, also I didn't know if someone had dropped out of the
                          people in front of me - it would not have been the first time. I would have
                          liked to finish a few spots higher, which athlete, except the winner,
                          wouldn't, but 27:59 with 27 degrees/81F and 76% humidity is not too bad (
                          worse then Tokyo '91 ).
                          I saw what happened in front a few days ago and I couldn't believe it, it
                          was a different world, unbelievable and it left me speechless for a while.
                          I only have to say one thing: 13:12
                          Before the Olympics I had planned to switch to the marathon and after the
                          race my decision was even stronger.
                          My calves were tight after those 50 laps, but since I was also entered in
                          the 5K and it might be my last track olympics I said, what the heck, you
                          didn't come for a vacation and it's the Olympics, let's take round by round
                          and see how far you can go/run.
                          The first round was comfortable and the same story as the 10K heat, being
                          in the last heat made it easy to save as much energy as possible, no need
                          to stage any unneccessary sprint for the gallery, I had to think about the
                          semifinal the next day, which, I decided, would be my Final. The next day I
                          really felt the fatigue creeping in, I had trouble getting out of my bed
                          and also my afternoon nap could have lasted several hours longer....... It
                          didn't help that I was in the first heat, well, my luck regarding heat
                          draws had to run out one time. I knew I had to give everything I had and
                          finish at least 9th to have the slightest hope. When they sped up with 3,
                          or 4 laps to go I just couldn't find another gear, but somehow managed to
                          finish 9th. Don't ask me how, because I was completely empty at the Finish.
                          And then the miracle 2nd semifinal heat. I watched it in the mixed zone
                          with the other runners and I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the first
                          2 laps, didn't they know what they had to run to qualify people by time, or
                          did everybody think they could sprint the last lap in 52 seconds....?
                          6:04 at 2k, that's when some of the guys looked at me and said: Looks like
                          you HAVE to run again....., but I still wouldn't believe it, but with 4
                          laps to go I packed my bag and left the mixed zone with a big smile on my
                          face, ready to go warm down and to get ready for the Final.
                          As for the Final, my calves were getting tighter and tighter with each
                          race, but I never thought of not running, I tried to run positively and
                          stay with the leaders as long as my tired legs would allow me, but when
                          they threw in a 61 sec. lap after halfway I think, I had to let go of my
                          dreams. I didn't want to get last, but I never looked back, instead trying
                          to hang with the Algerian Benzine, getting to the finishline as fast as
                          possible.... I didn't get last and I was happy to have finished and lasted
                          87 and a half laps on that unforgiving track. I was o.k. after the 5K semi,
                          but my right calf was really tight after the Final, 2 Finals but no Zurich,
                          In hindsight I would do it again, because it was awesome to race 5 times in
                          the Olympic stadium, how many people get that chance and the Olympics are
                          only every 4 years and I dreamed of running in the Olympics one day when I
                          was a kid watching the Montreal Olympics on TV. Zurich and all the other GP
                          meets will be back next year and the year after that.

                          I hope I didn't bore all the listmembers with my monologue,

                          Stephane Franke

                          I will drive down to Zurich to watch the meet live, my brain hormones
                          demand a new supply of live track dosage after the post-olympic
                          I predict a sub 12:40


                          • #43
                            Re: Darkwing RIP

                            I've been on darkwing since 1997 which is after what some folks describe as its classic period but it was still quite good for several years, especially to get quick International results when they were not as available as now. I recall great debates and discussions during the Sydney drug scandals. Since then, it has gradually died out as sites such as this one have gotten popular. Too bad, but a sign of progress.


                            • #44
                              Re: Darkwing RIP

                              I was on the t-and-f list from its first day. Charlie Mahler posted a notice on the USENET board rec.running in March 1993. An early poster with great knowledge was Keiron Bailey (you out there anywhere, Keiron?). The 93 WC's were great on the list, showing the potential of the internet.

                              In the fall of '93, as I recall (or perhaps '94) the signal-to-noise ratio of the board deteriorated significantly with a lot of "My CC team is better than your CC team" posts, and worse. So several of us teamed up to serve as list moderators - emailing offenders and unsubscribing them if necessary. Some time later Geoff Hutchison and I started t-and-f-select, a subset of t-and-f posts that edited out HS, most NCAA, and all off-topic discussion.

                              t-and-f started on the Gustaphus Adolphus servers, and first migrated to That was a mistake. After several months of poor service, we were able to use U of O servers, and stayed there.
                              Williams never hosted the list, just t-and-f-select and the archives. At its peak there were about 2500 subscribers to the main list, the digest list, and the select list.

                              The discussions in the '93 and '95 WC and the '96 OG were great. Masback was on regularly in 96 and was involved in some very interesting interchanges about TV coverage (he was one of the NBC commentators). Another classic post was Eric Nedeau's account of witnessing Coghlan's indoor post-40 sub-4 - which TAFNews picked up and printed (with permission).

                              I have compressed archives of all the early years. I'll try to dig in to those and post a classic or two.



                              • #45
                                Re: Darkwing RIP

                                >"I was on the t-and-f list from its first day.
                                So several of us teamed up to serve as list moderators>- Some time later Geoff>Hutchison and I started t-and-f-select"

                                wow - a pioneer - I salute you!