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  • tafnut
    Re: Darkwing RIP

    from another source:
    During the 1963 cross-country season, Timmons had Ryun running up to 80 miles a week, with a few unique twists to the program. When they ran interval sessions on the track, Timmons insisted that his runners stay in constant motion. Sometimes they did the normal jogging interval between repeats. But other times they did "cables"--practicing their running form by running against the resistance of a flexible cable looped over a fence--or lifted the free weights that were brought to backside. "Our feeling about this is that you can rest one muscle group and work others during that period," Timmons explained. At the end of the workout, the team would spend 15 minutes in the swimming pool doing what Timmons called "kicking and bobbing drills." "We thought this was one of the finest phases of our program," he said, "because we were able to get our squad of 100 boys in the water doing flexibility exercises at one time, and it served the same purpose as a whirlpool but was far more beneficial."

    With a goal of 4:02 for the 1964 outdoor track season, Timmons increased Ryun's winter training to 16 miles a day, largely overdistance work. When the Kansas winter finally relented, the track workouts began with a vengeance. One afternoon, Ryun completed four sets of 10x 440 yards, the idea being to finish the repeat and interval jog in three minutes. Ryun ran the first set of repeats at 71-second-per-quarter pace, the second and third sets at 69 pace, and the final set at 67. "Progress is not made without pushing back the pain barrier," Timmons said, "but we prefer to think of it in a different way. In the case of repeated intervals, we ask that our runners attempt to better previous averages on specific drills. If each athlete tries to do this, as he approaches his potential, he will experience pain. We emphasize the improvement of times rather than pain but, eventually, every athlete will expose himself to this feeling if this philosophy is diligently adhered to."

    Ryun ran far faster than 4:02 in 1964. He broke the four-minute barrier with a 3:59, ran the equivalent of 3:56 in a 1500meter race, and then discovered an incredible new goal: he was racing well enough to have a shot, albeit slight, at making the U.S. Olympic team. That meant training even harder. He moved onto Timmons' farm for six weeks and did workouts like 20 x 440 in 62.5 seconds. "Jim worked to do one thing- to learn how to sprint when he was tired," Timmons said. "The poor guy had a mean old coach who would get him out and work him until he was exhausted and then say, 'OK, Jim, we're going to go to work now... you're going to sprint.'" The training paid off when Ryun edged Jim Grelle for the third spot on the U.S. 1500-meter squad.

    Two years later, as a frosh at Kansas University (where Timmons had assumed the head coaching job), Ryun set two new world records: 1:44.9 for the half-mile and 3:51.3 for the mile. Fifteen years have passed but that mile-which Ryun ran on a cinder track with no one to push him the last two laps-stands the equal of anything that has been run since. Some track experts believe today's all-weather tracks are a second-per-lap faster than the tracks of Ryun's heyday. In the 2 1/2 months leading up to his two world records, Ryun trained as much as 105 1/2 miles a week, and as little as 30 1/2. He ran as long as 12 miles of cross-country at six-minute pace, and as fast as 6 x 220 yards in an average of 23.8 seconds. He and Timmons put it all together, which is what it takes to set world records. ... tion6.html

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  • tafnut
    Re: Darkwing RIP

    one example -

    Track training of Jim Ryun:
    All runs are finished with kicking the legs in the pool to loosen the muscles and enhance flexibility. Averaging about 110 miles per week with most of it at a fast pace.
    Standard Warmup
    1320m, with 800m rec. 2 x 600m with 4:00 for run and recovery. 4 x 300m with 3:00 for run and recovery, then 800m recovery jog. 6 x 100m sprints, then 8 x 60 m sprints.
    4 x 200m steep hill sprinting to practice sprinting when tired.
    Warmdown 20 x 400m in 62.5 seconds

    Cross Country training of Jim Ryun:
    Averaging about 88 miles per week with most of it at a fast pace.
    Saturday 16.5 miles at 6:07 pace
    Sunday 5 miles easy jogging after church
    Monday 20 minute standard warmup (1 mile jog, stretching, 4 x 120 yards, 4 x 60 yards) Mile in 4:23, 3 x 800m in 2:45, 4 x 400m in 69 sec, with 3 minutes for each run and recovery)
    Tuesday Standard Warmup 6 x 1500m in 5:02 with 3 minutes rec. 6 x 800m in 2:49
    2.5 mile warmdown
    WednesdayA.M. 4 miles easy PM. Standard Warmup
    4 x (8 x 400m) Averaging 71, 70, 70, 68 for each set of 8. In between each set he jogged a mile for his rest period.
    Standard Warmdown
    Thursday AM 3 miles easy
    P.M. Standard Warmup
    3 x (10 x 200m) 30, 30, 33. Rec. 2.5 minutes rest for run an recovery. 2.5 mile warmdown

    edit: source

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  • MJR
    Re: Darkwing RIP

    If someone would post it here (retyping i would assume would be necessary) that would be a blessing.

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  • cruzin
    Re: Darkwing RIP

    "My favorite Darkwing post of all time was Jim Ryun's training log from the summer of 1966 -- about as inspiring as a training log can be. I still have a copy printed from a dot matrix printer."

    LEX, It does not look like you have had the time to type this in. Is there anyway I could pay for a photocopy? please contact me at [email protected].

    Leave a comment:

  • MJD
    Re: Darkwing RIP

    >beats me: The archive is searchable, although "Ryun" will probably only yield
    >around 22,000 hits!

    "letsrun" gets damn near the max on this board if you search for it.

    Leave a comment:

  • tafnut
    Re: Darkwing RIP

    >>This >Board definitely has more of a quick-in, quick-out feel to it.

    That's because there's so many distance types here who have no 'real' stamina ;-).

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  • cruzin
    Re: Darkwing RIP

    It appears that the archive does not go back far enough to have captured the Jim Ryun training thread.

    Leave a comment:

  • gh
    Re: Darkwing RIP

    beats me: The archive is searchable, although "Ryun" will probably only yield around 22,000 hits!

    Leave a comment:

  • cruzin
    Re: Darkwing RIP

    I recently came across an article written by Jim Ryun titled Developing a Miler. It detailed a few choice weeks of his training. I would be neat to read an expanded journal that covered more than just a week. Is the previously mentioned Jim Ryun thread in that archive?

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  • gh
    Re: Darkwing RIP

    Nothing worse than somebody who prattles on at too-great length, but I do miss some of the longer "more thoughtful" pieces we used to get on Darkwing. This Board definitely has more of a quick-in, quick-out feel to it.

    If you want to view the archive of Darkwing, it's still here:[email protected]/

    Leave a comment:

  • TrackCEO
    Re: Darkwing RIP

    I posted hundreds of times to the T-and-F list, and even used it as a sports copy editor of The San Diego Union-Tribune. When I needed a quick answer to some arcane question (by deadline), I posted to T-and-F and invariably got an authoritative answer. I also took grief on occasion, and meted some out. Garry Hill also was a big presence, until he ditched the list when this forum started. Malmo (whose real name is known to many) also was a major player. Some folks got kicked off for bad taste. I recall when more than 2,000 subscribed to T-and-F. But track mailing lists aren't all going the way of dinosaurs. The masterstf mailing list (originally on egroups and now on Yahoo Groups) is up to 550 and is going stronger among the geezer crowd.

    Here's the masterstf archive:

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  • tafnut
    Re: Darkwing RIP

    "to build up such a type to run thru each 440 around 55 sec. Imagine a big, upstanding type, properly conditioned, mature(Elliott remember is only 20 years) who can run to start with, and do
    laps in 55 sound too ridiculous? Of course not, and work out what itmeans to the mile if such a one could unleash a last 440 in 50 sec "

    my math skills must be failing me, because every time I add up his proposed splits of 55-55-55-50, I keep getting a mile in 3:35. Must be talking about Elliott's 1500, huh?

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  • DecFan
    Re: Darkwing RIP

    OK, here's a classic post from the t-and-f email list:

    Joe Rubio made this post during the Sydney Olympics. It contains a letter from Percy Cerutty to Payton Jordan, written in 1958:

    With all the fuss going around about the performances in the Olympics by
    US middle distance runners, I thought it would be a good time to break
    out this letter written in 1958 from Percy Cerruty to Payton Jordan.
    Don't know how Mike Muska or Bill Scobey got it from ink on paper to
    email format or even how they got it, but glad they took the time to do
    it. I particularly like the quote "I marvel how poor & weak They are --
    Not how good!" when he refers to Elliott, Truex, Bowden, etc...hope you
    enjoy it.

    Oct. 14. 1958

    Dear Payton,

    It was really grand hearing from you. Re: a USA Univ. I have not
    altered my views as to Stanford, and the great Payton Jordan -- one
    iota. Further I am posting your letter on to Herb (Elliott).

    But frankly, still being here, and Herb back in Australia, I
    actually know nothing as to what he intends doing. Herb in not very
    communicative and has a pretty good faculty for going for the biggest
    things for Herb! As a matter of fact, just as the end of the "will I,
    won't I turn Pro and go with Leavitt (?) -- His Mother was asked on TV
    her opinion. She said she was definitely against the Pro proposition,
    but as Herb hadn't as yet bothered to consult his parents, did it matter
    what her opinion was?

    Herb is not a good correspondent so my not hearing is no worse
    treatment than he give his girlfriend -- 3 letters all the time he was
    away from Aus. in the US!

    So it all adds up to -- we all wait for Master Herb. If it is
    education in the USA, he knows my views about you and Stanford. And
    whether he comes as a student or an athlete competing back to California
    in '59. I know I am very interested to do so and will try and do so
    with other athletes such as (Albert) Thomas and (Murray) Halberg both
    sub 4 min. milers and holder of the Worlds 2m, 3m & 4m between them, if
    not Herb.

    I have a 12 min. sound film -- "A Day in the Cerutty Training Camp"
    and may make a longer one dealing with my technique -- for use in
    clinics and for senior Scholars in the schools, etc. say, to run for 24
    min. or 30 min.

    I have had a good learning over this side -- we cleaned up the
    English only too cleanly at the Empire Games at Cardiff to be completely
    ignored -- altho' Jack Crump has opinioned in World Sports that he
    doesn't think my results were due to coaching. He actually wrote
    (quote) "Of course coaching is important, as yet I do not believe any
    special coaching method, nor any superior or secret technique, has led
    Australia to produce such great runners."

    I would naturally ask him what has produced them? I am shocked at
    the poor upper body movements, use of arms, etc. as seen over here in
    England & Europe & so much have I convinced them by personal
    demonstration, and immediate improvement, as in the case of Segal (?),
    Dan Waern & others, that I was offered good jobs to stay in Sweden. I
    thought in many places in South Sweden, Oslo & Belgium. When in South
    Sweden a Danish Coach and two athletes thought it worthwhile to come,
    see and listen for 3 days. I am invited back each year.

    However until I know exactly what Herb means, or wants, or Can do --
    our AAU are very backward and hinder us dreadfully -- I have no real
    plans, except as I say, I would like to spend some months in California
    -- usefully.

    Perhaps a clinic -- athletes camp -- could be organized when the
    school year closes where I could properly teach my methods, both as to
    moving over the ground, and means of heavy conditioning for strength.
    My personal experience, observation, and work over here has confirmed me
    in my views, if any such was needed.

    World Sport for Nov. will carry a story -- if they use my suggested
    title -- "Elliott! The Beginning of a New Era?" and they appear
    thrilled with it. However, they cannot, or do not, pay like Sports
    Illustrated of N.Y. who have sent me a cheque for $250 -- a lot to me,
    merely to use some extract of an article I wrote!

    How then can I go on from here. As I wrote, and have been taken up
    on it -- over here, types like Don Bowden (1st American under 4 min.)
    could eat the 4 min. mile & honestly Payton I can foresee, and envisage
    how it can be done, to build up such a type to run thru each 440 around
    55 sec. Imagine a big, upstanding type, properly conditioned, mature
    (Elliott remember is only 20 years) who can run to start with, and do
    laps in 55 sound too ridiculous? Of course not, and work out what it
    means to the mile if such a one could unleash a last 440 in 50 sec -- as
    Elliott did in the 880 -- I marvel how poor & weak They are -- Not how

    In Australia, they just refused to believe I could know: it must
    always be the imported article: That is traditional and it tends to
    make one sensitive to criticism, doubt, etc. You have probably
    experienced the same thing in some respects.

    However, when I am permitted to, I am most willing to co-operate
    with anyone; demonstrate and put my case, If in the USA I still would
    like that opportunity whether Herb comes to the USA or not.

    I you will forgive me saying so, there is much to be done to enhance
    USA times above the 880. And is not the fact that most athletes are
    students. Many are older than Herb & no younger than diminutive Albert
    Thomas, only 5'5" tall & around 123 lb. body weight. Yet Albert, (who
    was not even known in the USA only this year) has ran -- I think it was
    3:58.6 for the mile & holds the Worlds best 2 mile & 3 mile times --
    His last mile in the 2 mile was run at 4:09 because the first mile was
    too slow at 4:21! Thomas believes as I do, he can run much faster --
    but I see little of him in Aus. and which is handicap. One could hardly
    imagine Thomas (as [Max] Truex) the ultimate,or best type, for the mile
    or 2 m. They are not. But they can be coached to it! We shall soon
    see the 2 mile run in 8:20: Then when the mile has dropped, the 8 min.
    (?) two mile will be the next big barrier, like the 4 min mile! If
    there was only Herb, I could not be so confident: But there has been
    Landy 3:57.9 and (Dave) Stephens, 6 mile 27:54. and Halberg. W.R. 4 mile
    & winner of Emp. Games in 13:15 (3 mile event) has also been to Portsea
    & knows my methods well. He is in my Group -- as is Dave Power -- 6
    mile & marathon -- Empire Games. We cleaned up these English: I hope
    it is only a start! So, if you know of any way of any "short term"
    employment in California, especially, I am your man! Given a fairly
    free hand to expound: exhort: and convince by example -- I can do an
    awful lot with a good lad in -- 2 weeks or a month, continuous

    So: if you have any ideas that may be helpful for me, please do me
    the honor of advising, or acquainting me of them.

    In the meantime, believe me -- I did enjoy California -- and
    particularly San Francisco -- the Berkeley Parties -- O, boy! what
    fabulous memories: These North Pole Groups are too frozen for my (?)
    nature and corruptive temperament --

    I can say no more that -- if it is USA. My weight is pushing for
    Payton Jordan.

    My Kindest regards -- Sincerely Percy Cerutty

    Aus. address -- PORTSEA, Victoria, Australia (nothing else required)

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  • tafnut
    Re: Darkwing RIP

    >"I was on the t-and-f list from its first day.
    So several of us teamed up to serve as list moderators>- Some time later Geoff>Hutchison and I started t-and-f-select"

    wow - a pioneer - I salute you!

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  • DecFan
    Re: Darkwing RIP

    I was on the t-and-f list from its first day. Charlie Mahler posted a notice on the USENET board rec.running in March 1993. An early poster with great knowledge was Keiron Bailey (you out there anywhere, Keiron?). The 93 WC's were great on the list, showing the potential of the internet.

    In the fall of '93, as I recall (or perhaps '94) the signal-to-noise ratio of the board deteriorated significantly with a lot of "My CC team is better than your CC team" posts, and worse. So several of us teamed up to serve as list moderators - emailing offenders and unsubscribing them if necessary. Some time later Geoff Hutchison and I started t-and-f-select, a subset of t-and-f posts that edited out HS, most NCAA, and all off-topic discussion.

    t-and-f started on the Gustaphus Adolphus servers, and first migrated to That was a mistake. After several months of poor service, we were able to use U of O servers, and stayed there.
    Williams never hosted the list, just t-and-f-select and the archives. At its peak there were about 2500 subscribers to the main list, the digest list, and the select list.

    The discussions in the '93 and '95 WC and the '96 OG were great. Masback was on regularly in 96 and was involved in some very interesting interchanges about TV coverage (he was one of the NBC commentators). Another classic post was Eric Nedeau's account of witnessing Coghlan's indoor post-40 sub-4 - which TAFNews picked up and printed (with permission).

    I have compressed archives of all the early years. I'll try to dig in to those and post a classic or two.


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