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gh · 12-06-2004, 11:28 PM

Re: Jesse Owens Award Is a Sham - Tim Mack is Shafted

Think of it in football terms: nobody but quarterbacks need apply. Winning the Olympic 100 is a 500lb gorilla in too many people's minds, and they allow that to overrule a whole season in another event.

**Jon** · 12-06-2004, 11:30 PM

Re: Jesse Owens Award Is a Sham - Tim Mack is Shafted

>I challenge you to prove it statistically

The Jesse Owens Award is not all about statistics though (T&FN AOY maybe, but not JOA). Read what Masback said about the choice:

"For him to win the Jesse Owens Award is a testament to his ability to perform when the chips are down in perhaps the most pressure-filled event in track & field."

Considering the injuries he overcame in such a short space of time (i.e. burning the flesh off his toe) to become OG champ in such emphatic style, I wouldn't exactly say that he is undeserving of this award.

**tafnut** · 12-06-2004, 11:48 PM

Re: Jesse Owens Award Is a Sham - Tim Mack is Shafted

>> to>become OG champ in such emphatic style, I wouldn't exactly say that he is >undeserving of this award.

Say what? He nosed out a whole gaggle of guys who were inches behind him. How is that Emphatic? If they ran THAT race THAT day six times, we'd have at least five different winners. All kudos to JG being at the right place at the right time, but there are seriously 3 or 4 more deserving individuals.

gh · 12-06-2004, 11:52 PM

Re: Jesse Owens Award Is a Sham - Tim Mack is Shafted

<<Considering the injuries he
>overcame in such a short space of time (i.e. burning the flesh off his toe) >>

You lose me the minute you start the violin music. If the hanky coefficient is to be a factor, then I'm sure there are many heart-rending tales out there that could have been included in the bios of the candidates.

IMHO, these awards should be made by analysis of cold, hard statistics and nothing more. If you want to have an "inspirational winner" trophy that's fine, but don't confuse that with pure athletic performance.

**Jon** · 12-06-2004, 11:59 PM

Re: Jesse Owens Award Is a Sham - Tim Mack is Shafted

>Say what? He nosed out a whole gaggle of guys
>who were inches behind him. How is that Emphatic?

Just a few weeks before, his injury was preventing him from breaking 10.2, let alone 10.0. But in Athens, he beat the two pre-race favourites (Greene and Powell), with a time high up on the alltime lists, in one of the greatest (in terms of depth) 100m finals of all time. Pretty emphatic if you ask me.

>If they ran THAT race THAT day six times, we'd have at least five different winners.

Likewise with the PV! It's infamously an event where people can have bad days and completely bomb out (Hartwig @ OT) and where underdogs can have very lucky days and score a big win (Gibilisco in '03, Hysong in '00, etc). If we re-ran the PV final six times on six different days, I'd be interested to see how many of those would be won by Stevenson or Gibilisco.

In fact, that logic could be applied to most finals in Athens. Say if we re-ran the men's 1500m and 5000m finals - you reckon Lagat, Bekele and Kipchoge would have been beaten every time? Of course not. Does it make El G's wins any less emphatic? Of course not.

gh · 12-07-2004, 12:02 AM

Re: Jesse Owens Award Is a Sham - Tim Mack is Shafted

Maybe we've answered this question

http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/tfn/di ... hread=9554

**Jon** · 12-07-2004, 12:05 AM

Re: Jesse Owens Award Is a Sham - Tim Mack is Shafted

>If the hanky coefficient is to be a factor, then I'm sure there
>are many heart-rending tales out there that could have been included in the
>bios of the candidates.

You're addressing the wrong guy.

Here - [email protected]

>IMHO, these awards should be made by analysis of
>cold, hard statistics and nothing more. If you want to have an "inspirational
>winner" trophy that's fine, but don't confuse that with pure athletic
>performance.

Correct me if I'm wrong (don't know the full JO-Award history) but have they ever claimed to give this award to the best athletes of the season based on pure statistics? And isn't Jesse Owens seen by many as an "inspirational favourite" among T&F fans...?

**tafnut** · 12-07-2004, 12:06 AM

Re: Jesse Owens Award Is a Sham - Tim Mack is Shafted

>>Just a few weeks before, his injury was preventing >him from breaking 10.2, let alone 10.0. But in Athens, he beat the two pre-race
>favourites (Greene and Powell), with a time high up on the alltime lists, in >one of the greatest (in terms of depth) 100m finals of all time. Pretty >emphatic if you ask me.<<

* that's a gh-hanky DQ

>>Likewise with the PV! It's >infamously an event where people can have bad days and completely bomb out >(Hartwig @ OT) and where underdogs can have very lucky days and score a big win >(Gibilisco in '03, Hysong in '00, etc). If we re-ran the PV final six times on six different days, I'd be interested to see how many of those would be won by >Stevenson or Gibilisco.<<

* except Mack WAS the favorite, unlike JG. So why was JG NOT the favorite if he was having such an awesome season?!

>>In fact, that logic could be applied to most finals >in Athens. Say if we re-ran the men's 1500m and 5000m finals - you reckon >Lagat, Bekele and Kipchoge would have been beaten every time? Of course not. >Does it make El G's wins any less emphatic? Of course not.<<

* We're talking about Murkans here, remember? There were few enough USA Golds that we can have a finite discussion - which, IMO, ends up with Wariner and Phillips and Mack ahead of JG. They WERE all OG favorites AND won. Now THERE'S a season!

gh · 12-07-2004, 12:10 AM

Re: Jesse Owens Award Is a Sham - Tim Mack is Shafted

Gatlin isn't even the top U.S. sprinter of the year: Crawford is.

**Jon** · 12-07-2004, 12:11 AM

Re: Jesse Owens Award Is a Sham - Tim Mack is Shafted

>* that's a gh-hanky DQ

No. Within that, I said "he won with a time high up on the alltime lists (higher up on the alltime lists than Mack), in one of the greatest (in terms of depth) 100m finals of all time (a statistically better final than the PV)" - that is stats, which is what youre after, no?

>* We're talking about Murkans here, remember?

No, you were asking what was emphatic about edging out other athletes on the finish line (a 'fluke win' some might say), and therefore I was asking if you think El G's wins - both in similar just-edging-out fashion to Gatlin's - were any less emphatic because of the fashion in which he won them. Your answer is....?

**vault565m** · 12-07-2004, 02:02 AM

Re: Jesse Owens Award Is a Sham - Tim Mack is Shafted

Yes, but anyone is not completely biased by the sprints can see the overall picture. Mack was a 13' 6" vaulter in high school. He began college in the NAIA. He wasn't even the best vaulter on his college team. He was 27 before jumping 19 for the first time. At the Prefontain meet he got dead last and was not even picked to make the team. But. . . he stuck to his training program which was set up to peak at the games, and he did. Then his peak lasted for 6 more weeks. He dominated. It is difficult to dominate the vault, much like golf, there are so many variables. Gatlin had one great race, I agree. Of the 14 jumps total this year over 19' 2", Mack is responsible for 6. By the way, his leading jump this year is 2nd on the all-time US list, Gatlin's is 3rd. Gatlin deserves great respect, but not the Jesse Owens. I believe it is the media looking for a Marion Jones replacement.

**vault565m** · 12-07-2004, 02:11 AM

Re: Jesse Owens Award Is a Sham - Tim Mack is Shafted

Not only did Tim Mack get shafted on the Jesse Owens award, but also the Jim Thorpe award which went to Dwight Phillips. Also a great year but did not set and OR at the games or win the Grand Prix final. Mack capped the year with a grand prix final championship, meet record, and leading world jump to boot. Phillips hovered in 2nd place. Mack had an almost mirror image season of Joanna Hayes (except she didn't win the trials) but who did win the Owens award. Why don't we reward the hard-working, drug-free, humble guys like Mack??? Maybe he should bleach his hair or get a tattoo or wear a helmet or scream at the camera and be cocky. Is that what America has come to?

**vault565m** · 12-07-2004, 02:18 AM

Re: Jesse Owens Award Is a Sham - Tim Mack is Shafted

Mack story is so inspirational that someone may write a book about it. However, the world wouldn't know it becasue the cameras were too busy focussing on Maurice Greenes damn GOAT tatto or Marion stonewalling the media. The media did no build up to the vault this year or many of the other field events. What a turn-off. Meanwhile, Dwight Stones has no clue about any of the vaulters, short of the five minutes he might have spent with them in the lobby. 85% of his comments during the men's vault were inaccurate. He made Toby famous though by ascribing him a nickname which nobody else ever really called Toby.

**vault565m** · 12-07-2004, 02:22 AM

Re: Jesse Owens Award Is a Sham - Tim Mack is Shafted

Actually, no it wasn't better than the men's vault. No one broke a record. Toby was as close to the previous record with his silver (2cm), as Gatlin was with his gold. And the Jesse Owens award is about more than just the Olympics, because they give it every year. Its the heisman trophy of track and field. It goes to the over-all most outstanding performer.

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