Distance records pre-'70s need asterisk?

[BillVol]

Here is Atlanta, a common refrain heard on sports talk radio in this city with many African-Americans is that Major League Baseball records established before blacks played in the majors should have an asterisk. And when you think about it, it makes perfect sense. Would Babe Ruth have done as well as he did if he had to face Satchel Paige on occasion? Back then, black people played baseball in greater numbers than they do now. Given equal opportunity, who knows how many blacks would have played in the majors?

I thought about this today in relation to distance running. Should the marks set before the African emergence in distance running be held in the same esteem as the marks of today? I hear all of this stuff about American and European runners running on a full belly of beer and you have to wonder. These African guys of today probably never touch a beer. And they train like the Americans and many Europeans can't imagine.

Would Frank Shorter have won the gold if the Africans were around like they are today? Billy Mills? Paavo Nurmi? Even Zatopek? Should these marks have asterisks next to them? Or if not asterisks, should we respect them less than the distance records set in recent years?

[Kirsner72]

Re: Distance records pre-'70s need asterisk?

This is almost a good troll. Almost, but not quite...

[wineturtle]

Re: Distance records pre-'70s need asterisk?

Asterisks for better time pieces,better calibration of still better time pieces,better yard sticks,better meter sticks,certified officials,better officals, stillbetter officials with still better yard sticks/meter sticks ......fie*********************************

Back edit for(see footnote 347-A subsection c-2)*

[KevinM]

Re: Distance records pre-'70s need asterisk?

Isn't this a moot point, given that the oldest standard distance record is Komen's 7:20, set in 1996?

[gh]

Re: Distance records pre-'70s need asterisk?

Big difference between baseball and track is that baseball systematically excluded blacks, track didn't, so while their opportunites were certainly greatly reduced (by a variiety of socio/econo/politico factors), you've got a century long history of black involvement in the Olympics.

[BillVol]

Re: Distance records pre-'70s need asterisk?

My point is that we should not respect and hold in the same esteem the records of the old days. When the "old" days were is open to debate. Has nothing to do with equipment or officials. Especially those things. Or even science or nutrition, since the African runner's diet is fairly plain, from what I've read.

An entirely new element was introduced to distance running relatively recently. If this element had been around in the old days, Zatopek, Nurmi, Shorter, Mills, etc., would not have won golds. In fact, they likely wouldn't have even medalled.

We have to make it clear to our American distance runners, most of which are bongo-beating, shark-tooth necklace wearing types from cushy upper- middle class backgrounds, that if they want to compete on the world stage, they should not have anybody other than the Africans as their idols and role models. Forget Zatopek, the Finns -- even Pre. They need to dispose of all the drums and necklaces and all the booze and start to train like hell and eat properly.

Edit: gh, just saw your post. Yes, track has always been open. But something happened in the '60s that brought this new African element into distance racing. If that "something" had happened earlier, wouldn't things have been different?

Edit again: In response to Tom's post. In every other track event besides the distances, you are right. But my point is that everybody was represented in those events. The Africans, however, were not in the distance events back then.

[dj]

Re: Distance records pre-'70s need asterisk?

I don't discount what billvol is writing, but how do we account for the millions of able-bodied Europeans who lost their lives from two wars fought on their own soil, as well as innumerable purges, pogroms, exterminations and the rest?

[SQUACKEE]

Re: Distance records pre-'70s need asterisk?

My point is that we should not respect and hold in the same esteem the records of the old days. When the "old" days were is open to debate. Has nothing to do with equipment or officials. Especially those things. Or even science or nutrition, since the African runner's diet is fairly plain, from what I've read.

An entirely new element was introduced to distance running relatively recently. If this element had been around in the old days, Zatopek, Nurmi, Shorter, Mills, etc., would not have won golds. In fact, they likely wouldn't have even medalled.

We have to make it clear to our American distance runners, most of which are bongo-beating, shark-tooth necklace wearing types from cushy upper- middle class backgrounds, that if they want to compete on the world stage, they should not have anybody other than the Africans as their idols and role models. Forget Zatopek, the Finns -- even Pre. They need to dispose of all the drums and necklaces and all the booze and start to train like hell and eat properly.

Edit: gh, just saw your post. Yes, track has always been open. But something happened in the '60s that brought this new African element into distance racing. If that "something" had happened earlier, wouldn't things have been different?

Edit again: In response to Tom's post. In every other track event besides the distances, you are right. But my point is that everybody was represented in those events. The Africans, however, were not in the distance events back then
Good points- id just like to say i saw viren in 72 oly 10000 final, fall down, get up and run his last 800 in 1;58 for a world record and didnt look tired. id put him up against anybody, then and now

[geezer]

Re: Distance records pre-'70s need asterisk?

This kind of bigotry has no place on this board. The records were what they were, and they were meant to be broken. If an American middle-class kid sets a record, would we then put an asterisk on all of those set by "Africans" to recognize that the American kid had to overcome PlayStation and fast-food? Stupid notion.

[R. Karlgaard]

Re: Distance records pre-'70s need asterisk?

By your logic, all medal winners prior to WWII should be asterisked since they didn't have to compete against state-supported Iron Curtain athletes.

Again by your logic, why not asterisk Skeets and Moses? They didn't face tall skinny hurdlers from China.

[bad hammy]

Re: Distance records pre-'70s need asterisk?

Pointless. The records have all been broken. No asterisks required. Dumb, dumb, dumb . . .

As for role models in the sport, any of the folks mentioned (Zatopek, Nurmi, Pre, Shorter, etc.) are fine. My guess, though, is that most young contemporary runners look to other fairly recent athletes for inspiration. In my formative track days (the 70s) the heroes we had were Ryun, Pre and Shorter. I'd never heard of Nurmi or Zapotek when I started running, their exploits having predated my entry onto this planet. Even Mills & Lindgren was barely known to me and my contemporaries at the time – they competed back when we were too young to care (Mills), or did not get the press in our neighborhood that Ryun and Pre did (Lindgren). We were just a bunch of high school doofs, not track and field historians or experts.

[Dutra]

Re: Distance records pre-'70s need asterisk?

>This kind of bigotry has no place on this board. The records were what they
>were, and they were meant to be broken. If an American middle-class kid sets a
>record, would we then put an asterisk on all of those set by "Africans" to
>recognize that the American kid had to overcome PlayStation and fast-food?
>Stupid notion.
>>>>

The poster has exhibited a fixation on race previously.

[kevinsdad]

Re: Distance records pre-'70s need asterisk?

You could play this game in any sport as opportunities and participation spread to more populations. How about asterisks for all the NBA records set back when American players didn't have to compete against Europeans, Chinese, and so forth?

[Cyril]

Re: Distance records pre-'70s need asterisk?

Silly thread. This sport evolves as do all sports. The emergence of the Africans has changed the sport for the better but that doesn't lessen the achievement of those who came before. Numri, Zatopek, Clarke, Coe etc. all helped the sport to evolve. All these guys also trained like hell.

There are plenty of role models in Africa and in the US. All the top US guys "train like hell". The difference between a 27:30 US guy and a 26:30 Ethiopian isn't hard work (they both work very hard)- it is genetic (not necessarily inherent in the nationality but in the individual).

[SQUACKEE]

Re: Distance records pre-'70s need asterisk?

Can you sa Lasse Viren?