Marathon results

I was just looking at Grandma Marathon results in Dulth, MN (the race Dick Beardsley runs).

Teddy Mitchell showed a little promise. Staying with the leaders through the half in 1:05:30 and through 20 miles in 1:41:01 (5:03 pace) but was handed a piano in the last 6 miles as cover the last 10K in 34:57 (ouch!) to clock a 2:16:00 for 4th place.

2:16:00 won't get you much but the way he ran it was encouraging. His 5:03 pace through 20 miles would be a 2:12 if he held it together for the last 6 miles. Also the June weather can be warm even in Minnesota so a cooler weather race would probably help as well.

Maybe with some additional stregnth work / mileage and cooler conditions he could clock a 2:12 or even 2:11 at the Oly Trials in Jan/Feb (2004). Heck even if he goes 2:13 or 2:14 he has a shot at 3rd (sad isn't it).

Log him in as an early dark horse.

Re: Marathon results

I would like to know where teddy is planning to compete next in the marathon.

Re: Marathon results

I don't know but I hope he doesn't do another on until the trials in either jan or Feb 2004

Re: Marathon results

>I don't know but I hope he doesn't do another on
>until the trials in either jan or Feb 2004

The men's OT marathon is in Feb only.

Re: Marathon results

>I was just looking at Grandma Marathon results in
>Dulth, MN (the race Dick Beardsley
>runs).

Teddy Mitchell showed a little promise.
>Staying with the leaders through the half in
>1:05:30 and through 20 miles in 1:41:01 (5:03
>pace) but was handed a piano in the last 6 miles
>as cover the last 10K in 34:57 (ouch!) to clock
>a 2:16:00 for 4th place.

2:16:00 won't get
>you much but the way he ran it was encouraging.
>His 5:03 pace through 20 miles would be a 2:12
>2 if he held it together for the last 6 miles.
>Also the June weather can be warm even in
>Minnesota so a cooler weather race would
>probably help as well.

Maybe with some
>additional stregnth work / mileage and cooler
>conditions he could clock a 2:12 or even 2:11 at
>the Oly Trials in Jan/Feb (2004). Heck even if
>he goes 2:13 or 2:14 he has a shot at 3rd (sad
>isn't it).

Log him in as an early dark horse.


Nothing at all against Mitchell, but your assessment is way off. There are already four U.S. men who could sleepwalk a sub 2:12 in ideal conditions, Khannouchi, Meb, Culpepper, and Browne. Even Ryan Shay would be considered a better dark horse candidate. Let's look at this realistically, Mitchell is 17th on the qualifier list and it wouldn't be at all surprising if he falls further down that list after the fall marathon season. Outside of the 2:16, there are no other results from recent years that indicate that he is in a position to really build towards running much faster. Mitchell has a decent shot at the top 10, but top 5 would be a miracle. I do hope he breaks through, though.

Re: Marathon results

You will have to pardon my slight biase as I competed against Teddy when I was in collge in the SEC. I'm not sure I buy your agruement that we have 4 marathoners who can sleepwalk through better than 2:12 under good conditions. I'd love to believe its true but won't count my chickens before they hatch.

Remember Browne is training in the "Altitude House" under Salazar, hope that doesn't screw him up too bad. Meb and Culpepper are 10k guys, hopefuly they are getting in the proper distance training. If they do fall marathons they only have a couple of months before the Oly trials, can be a tough turn around for guys who don't do the distance training marathon specialist do (not that we have any of those in the US). KK is a lock in (unless he gets a blister - couldn't resist) but anyone of about 10 guys could be viaing for the other two slots. Surely Culpepper, Browne, and Meb will be the favorites but I wouldn't count them in yet.

To be realistic Teddy's chances are not great but his Grandma's performance did show promise. Now he's been through 20 miles in 1:40 and that gives him a new perspective on things. If he manages a 2:11 or 2:12 he should be in the game (history shows).

I'd really love to see the US qualify with three guys running under 2:10 at the trials. But history doesn't give me tremendous hope for that to happen.

Re: Marathon results

>You will have to pardon my slight biase as I
>competed against Teddy when I was in collge in
>the SEC. I'm not sure I buy your agruement that
>we have 4 marathoners who can sleepwalk through
>better than 2:12 under good conditions. I'd love
>to believe its true but won't count my chickens
>before they hatch.

Don't worry, the bias was evident. You're right, 2:12 is an underestimation. Those four should be automatic for sub 2:10 in good conditions. They have all already achieved it (as opposed to just going through 20 at that pace) so the odds are not long at all.

Remember Browne is training
>in the "Altitude House" under Salazar, hope
>that doesn't screw him up too bad.

It sure hasn't hurt him in his marathon debut or at USATF Outdoors this year. Or in any of the other US titles he's won since he entered the arrangement.

> Meb and
>Culpepper are 10k guys, hopefuly they are getting
>in the proper distance training.

They already have and it's pretty easy to see.

> If they do fall
>marathons

They won't.

> they only have a couple of months
>before the Oly trials, can be a tough turn around
>for guys who don't do the distance training
>marathon specialist do (not that we have any of
>those in the US).

I beg your pardon, any of what?

> KK is a lock in (unless he
>gets a blister - couldn't resist)

I'd bet on KK with a blister over Ted-DNF.

> but anyone of
>about 10 guys could be viaing for the other two
>slots. Surely Culpepper, Browne, and Meb will be
>the favorites but I wouldn't count them in
>yet.

Why? Because they didn't run in the SEC? LOL

To be realistic Teddy's chances are not
>great but his Grandma's performance did show
>promise. Now he's been through 20 miles in 1:40
>and that gives him a new perspective on things.
>If he manages a 2:11 or 2:12 he should be in the
>game (history shows).

20 miles is a whole different ballgame than 26.2. 20 is where the race really begins and any marathon specialist would tell you that.

I'd really love to see
>the US qualify with three guys running under
>2:10 at the trials. But history doesn't give me
>tremendous hope for that to happen.

If Teddy can run 2:11 or 2:12, that just means that the conditions will be right for six or more to be running even faster.

Re: Marathon results

Getting a little testy aren't we Spiridon. Thats OK I can take it.

Meb, Browne, Culpepper have posted a good time or two in the marathon but as Kemp. and others have proven in the past one or two good times does not assure you a good time every time out. Meb and Culpepper haven't run marathon in 2003 have they? Like I said, they deserve to be favorites but 26.3 miles is a long way (as you point out) and so don't bank on anyone who hasn't been there very often or recently.

As for Teddy, what is your beef with him. He's improving and making a good effort and I thought his Grandma's marathon showed promise for future growth on his part. Good for him, lets not bash him cause you don't like my posts.

As for the SEC. I couldn't care whether or not a runner is from the SEC but I have competed against Teddy and from what I could tell he has promise. Like most people I would like to see someone I've met/competed against do well for himself.

Sorry if I offended you by the off the cuff remark about not having any marathon specialists in the US. Actually thats not true, I was more commenting on the demise of the US as a power in the marathon. Other than KK we don't have Americans in the top 20 in most major marathons. Meb, Browne, Culpepper, Williams, etc. have posted a good time or two but no-one in the US is consistantly placing in Boston, New York, Chicago, London .... the way Rodgers or Salazar or Shorter did in top marathons. The reason given that Nike started the "Altitude House" was because Nike's president was so discouraged by the lack of a top US placer (i.e top 20) at Boston. (see my comments on the Altitude house under a different post)

Sorry if you are marathon specialist, my comment was from frustration rather fairness.

And finally, as a marathon specialist would know, if you can make it to 20 miles at 5:00 pace under hot conditions, than with increased endurance work and cooler conditions you have a real shot at holding that pace for 26.2 miles.
5:00 pace is a 2:11 marathon and would have earned a spot on the team at all previous US Olympic Teams. It may not in 2004 but if you can run a 2:11 or 2:12 than yes Spiridon you are at least a dark horse for making the team.

In my estimation (purely subjective) Teddy has a chance at a 2:11 or 2:12 at the Trials.

Re: Marathon results

To save a need for a later response, I ment 26.2 miles (not 26.3 miles as typed). My typing needs work so I do have an occasional typo.

Re: Marathon results

>Getting a little testy aren't we Spiridon. Thats
>OK I can take it.

Well, actually no.

Meb, Browne, Culpepper have
>posted a good time or two in the marathon but as
>Kemp. and others have proven in the past one or
>two good times does not assure you a good time
>every time out. Meb and Culpepper haven't run
>marathon in 2003 have they? Like I said, they
>deserve to be favorites but 26.3 miles is a long
>way (as you point out) and so don't bank on
>anyone who hasn't been there very often or
>recently.

I think the consistency in their racing at other long distances makes them surer bets than someone who either DNFs or paces the top woman in half his races.

As for Teddy, what is your beef with
>him. He's improving and making a good effort and
>I thought his Grandma's marathon showed promise
>for future growth on his part. Good for him,
>lets not bash him cause you don't like my
>posts.

Maybe you missed it but I said way above that I don't have a single thing against Teddy. I hope that this is his breakthrough year, but I haven't seen much yet that would realistically elevate him past Meb, Browne, Culpepper, KK, and even Shay in the marathon. I never said I was bashing him (and I haven't been, I've only been citing facts) or that I don't like your posts. I just disagree with some things you have said.

As for the SEC. I couldn't care
>whether or not a runner is from the SEC but I
>have competed against Teddy and from what I could
>tell he has promise. Like most people I would
>like to see someone I've met/competed against do
>well for himself.

That was a joke. You know, "LOL"? For the record, you aren't the only one who thought Teddy could do big things based on his collegiate record.

Sorry if I offended you by
>the off the cuff remark about not having any
>marathon specialists in the US.

No, not offended, just confused by how you worded that statement. The meaning was unclear.


Sorry if you are marathon specialist, my
>comment was from frustration rather fairness.
>

And finally, as a marathon specialist would
>know, if you can make it to 20 miles at 5:00
>pace under hot conditions, than with increased
>endurance work and cooler conditions you have a
>real shot at holding that pace for 26.2
>miles.

What hot conditions? It was below 70 for his entire race.

5:00 pace is a 2:11 marathon and would
>have earned a spot on the team at all previous
>US Olympic Teams. It may not in 2004 but if you
>can run a 2:11 or 2:12 than yes Spiridon you are
>at least a dark horse for making the team.
>

OK.

In my estimation (purely subjective) Teddy
>has a chance at a 2:11 or 2:12 at the
>Trials.

Alright.

Re: Marathon results

For the record, I'm the one who's probably testy. Did a long run this weekend in the heat (Temp 80) and "bonked" (ran out of glucogen) with just over 3 miles to go so just put it survival mode and jogged in. Haven't felt like myself since.

As for the Grandma's Marathon most serious/elite marathoners I talk with say they think your performance (time) diminishes when race conditions get above 60 degrees. A few were even saying above 55 (not sure I buy that though). So although you are correct mid 60's is not Hot it still can diminish performance or make you "bonk" early.

- A dehydrated and a little punchy Ultrarunner

Re: Marathon results

>I was just looking at Grandma Marathon results in
>Dulth, MN (the race Dick Beardsley
>runs).

Not to pick nits, but I'm not sure what you mean by "Dick Beardsley runs".
As an athlete, Beardsley has won Grandma's twice, once in course record time on a perfect day with Garry Bjorklund racing/pacing him for more than 20 miles. He has run it at least once in later years just under three hours.

But if you believe Beardley "runs" Grandma's in terms of having anything to do with the race organization, management and execution, you are very mistaken. Scott Keenan is the only race director Grandma's has ever had.
Beardsley gets paid by local media to act as an announcer and by Grandma's, Inc. to be a motivational speaker. In other words, to shmooze with the masses as course record-holder. And he plugs his book.
Other than lend his presence as a paid speaker, Dick Beardsley has had extremely little to do with running events in Minnesota, and certainly nothing to do with the behind the scenes grunt work--not that he is required to do so, but I wanted to set the record straight on behalf of the hundreds of volunteers every year who make Grandma's the annual success it has been for over 25 years now.

Re: Marathon results

Thanks for the correction. I had no idea. When ever I hear or see anything about Grandma's it usually has Dick's name attached with it.

My apolgies to the race director and volunteers for my error. Additionally I want to convey my compliments, I have heard nothing but good things about the race and how well its run.

Having family in Minnesota, I hope to be able to run it one year soon.

Re: Marathon results

>For the record, I'm the one who's probably testy.
>Did a long run this weekend in the heat (Temp
>80) and "bonked" (ran out of glucogen) with
>just over 3 miles to go so just put it survival
>mode and jogged in. Haven't felt like myself
>since.

No worries, I think I could be subdued enough for the both of us. Drink up, hope you're back to normal quickly.

As for the Grandma's Marathon most
>serious/elite marathoners I talk with say they
>think your performance (time) diminishes when
>race conditions get above 60 degrees. A few
>were even saying above 55 (not sure I buy that
>though). So although you are correct mid 60's
>is not Hot it still can diminish performance or
>make you "bonk" early.

I don't disagree with any of that. I am sure that, while not hot, it was warmer than what is ideal for the marathon, hence the 2:11 winning time.

Just to be clear, I don't mean to underestimate TM in any way. On the same token, I didn't want to see KK, MG, AC, DB, et al underestimated either. No matter how he ran it, TM's 2:16 is indeed a promising result after a lengthy (IMHO) stretch of performaces which (IMHO) were well below his level of ability. Will you be racing in Birmingham, too? Godspeed to you, TM, and the rest of the OT field and let the chips fall where they may.