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  • #31
    Re: Croatia 1500 Berryhill/Lunn

    >>GH-

    I don't buy the
    >undeveloped talent argument. There's a pretty
    >decent argument to be made that being an elite
    >(close to 4:00) HS miler doesn't mean anything
    >other than those particular kids developed at an
    >earlier age than other kids who ultimately ended
    >up running faster in their adult life. This has
    >nothing to do with training or coaching. Simply
    >in a physical sense. For the most part the top US
    >milers were good to very good HS kids but not on
    >the cusp of breaking 4:00.

    1500
    >METERS
    3:29.77 ........ Sydney Maree (Pum)
    >85
    3:31.01 ........... Jim Spivey (AW)
    >88
    3:31.52 ...... Steve Holman (ReebE)
    >97
    3:31.76 ......... Steve Scott (Tig)
    >85
    3:31.93 .. David Krummenacker (adi)
    >02
    3:33.1 .............. Jim Ryun (Ks)
    >67
    3:33.6 ......... Joe Falcon (Asics)
    >90
    3:33.72 ...... Seneca Lassiter (Ar)
    >99
    3:33.89 ...... Paul McMullen (Sauc)
    >01
    3:33.99 .......... Steve Lacy (AFS) 80

    >.............. Todd Harbour (SMTC)
    >82

    MILE
    3:47.69 .......... Steve Scott (S4)
    >82
    3:48.83 ......... Sydney Maree (AA)
    >81
    3:49.31 ........ Joe Falcon (Asics)
    >90
    3:49.80 ........... Jim Spivey (AW)
    >86
    3:50.34 ........ Todd Harbour (Bay)
    >81
    3:50.40 ...... Steve Holman (ReebE)
    >97
    3:50.84 ............ Tom Byers (AW)
    >82
    3:51.1 .............. Jim Ryun (Ks)
    >67
    3:51.34 ....... John Gregorek (Gtn)
    >82
    3:51.39 ........ Richie Harris (AW)
    >84

    Contrast the above list with the HS list
    >and you see a spotty record with some successes
    >(Centrowitz, Lindgren, Ryun and Liquori); some
    >not so successes (Danielson, Powell, Hall, Webb)
    >and some who fall in the middle. I'm not ready
    >to give up on Webb or Hall just yet but I don't
    >hold a lot of hope that they will improve much,
    >if at all, from their best HS efforts.


    1500
    >METERS
    3:38.26 .. *Alan Webb (South Lakes,
    >Reston, Va) 01
    3:39.0 ... *Jim Ryun (East,
    >Wichita, Ks) 64
    3:42.70 ... Ryan Hall (Big Bear,
    >Big Bear City, Ca) 01
    3:43.18 ....Jonathon Riley
    >(Brookline, Ma) 97
    3:43.4 ...Centrowitz (Power
    >Memorial, NYC, NY) 73
    3:43.81 ....Donald Sage
    >(York, Elmhurst, Il) 00
    3:44.43 ....John Quade
    >(Woodinville, Wa) 85
    3:44.6 ....Gerry Lindgren
    >(Rogers, Spokane, Wa) 64
    Vince Draddy (Iona
    >Prep, New Rochelle, NY) 79
    3:45.5 ... Jason
    >Pyrah (Willard, Mo) 87

    MILE
    3:53.43 .. Alan
    >Webb (South Lakes, Reston, Va) 01
    3:55.3 .. Jim
    >Ryun (East, Wichita, Ks) 65
    3:59.4 .. Tim
    >Danielson (Chula Vista, Ca) 66
    3:59.8 Marty
    >Liquori (Essex Cath, Newark, NJ) 67
    4:00.29
    >Donald Sage (York, Elmhurst, Il) 00
    4:01.5
    >.5 ... Gerry Lindgren (Rogers, Spokane, Wa)
    >64
    4:02.01 Sharif Karie' (W Springfield, Va)
    >97
    4:02.4 Richard Kimball (DeLaSalle, Ca)
    >74
    4:02.7 . Matt Centrowitz (Power Memorial,
    >NYC) 73
    i ..... Thom Hunt (Henry, San
    >Diego, Ca) 76
    .. Andy Powell (Ames, North
    >Easton, Ma) 99

    To gh's point it may be better
    >to have a larger pot of 4:07 - 4:15 guys to have
    >one or two elite international runners pop
    >through than to have a consistent stream of one
    >or two HSers per year knocking on the 4:00
    >door.

    jd

    Those lists are interesting but can make the point in either direction. Sure it would be nice to have more kids running 4:07-4:15 but that doesn't mean anything if they can't transition.

    Those lists show the weakness we have in transitioning those fast kids to faster adults. Ryun and Liquori were the only ones to make the transition. It may be that all the others were close to maturity in h.s. but I doubt it.

    To make you point we would need to look at a list to see how many h.s. milers were in the 4:00-4:20 range during different eras - in the mid-60s, late 70s, early 80s, late 80s early 90s and late 90's early 00s. I would guess, if anything, the numbers now are very high. Maybe not the highest ever but probably the highest since the early 80s.

    The point is, over the past 10 years there have been a lot of kids running 4:10-4:20 none have improved significantly to be able to run competitively at the international level. Why?

    If we have twice as many in the 4:00-4:20 range we will likely still have none making the transition because 2 x 0 = 0. We have to figure out what isn't working before we will see a change coming out of the system.

    We need to think long-term instead of focusing on the upcoming season to develope talent that peaks in the late 20s instead of in the late teens.

    Webb is a very interesting study because he has pulled himself away from "the system" which, I contend, is at the crux of the problem. We can watch him in comparison to Hall and Brennan. It should be very interesting.

    Its too early to write any of them off or say they are successful, another couple of years should say plenty.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Croatia 1500 Berryhill/Lunn

      There is not much difference between Berryhill/Lunn and Whiteman/East. Throw in Krummenacker and the US has a slight advantage. Still, many believe that Krummenacker is morphing into a 800m runner. Lets hope not.

      The other list shows that fast High School mile times don't always transend to fast international elite times. Both Scott and Falcon ran around 4:06 in High School. Watch out for those high school runner who post times around 4:05 and 4:10. They seem to be the ones that peek at the right time.

      Krummenacker has posted one of the worlds fastest 1500meter time in the last few years.
      What is he doing running the 800m.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Croatia 1500 Berryhill/Lunn

        I don't think Krum is "morphing" into an 800m runner - he IS an 800m runner (ranked 3rd in the WORLD last year, won world indoor 800m this year, won U.S. outdoor championships). I hope he continues to morph!!

        I wouldn't put Whiteman in the same category as Lunn/Berryhill - he is significantly faster - 3:32/3:53 last year - and he has proven himself in some big 1500m/miles over the years.

        Cyril - you made some good points about Webb removing himself from "the system". Guess that's why I have been such a defender of the guy this year. Can't be critical of our distance runner AND be critical of a guy trying something different. As Johnson (800m) and others have shown, college indoor/outdoor doesn't leave a lot left for the European Circuit.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Croatia 1500 Berryhill/Lunn

          Both Scott and Falcon ran around 4:06 in
          >High School. Watch out for those high school
          >runner who post times around 4:05 and 4:10. They
          >seem to be the ones that peek at the right
          >time.

          I don't think Scott ran that fast as a prep. I don't think he broke 4:10. I seem to remember closer to 4:16 though he ran a very good 800 (about 1:52).

          Krummenacker has posted one of the
          >worlds fastest 1500meter time in the last few
          >years.
          What is he doing running the 800m.

          Krum was world indoor champ and also has one of the fastest times in the world this year in the 8. He is always in the mix on two laps. Lunn beat him a couple of months ago at the 15. He was a sure thinn in the 8 at Nationals. He may not have won the 15. I also think all this 800 will ultimately benefit him in the 15 but I would like to see him run it more frequently as well - he needs the experience if he is ever going to be a contender in the big meets.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Croatia 1500 Berryhill/Lunn

            >It seems just about every international miler can
            >now run a 3:55 mile (3:36 1500m). The 3:55 mile
            >is as common place as 4:00 mile was in
            >1975.

            If thing continue to progress like this
            >the new WC qualifying standard maybe 3:30
            >(3:50mile) for the 1500m by 2010.


            3:55 mile is NOT the same as a 3:36 1500 meters. According to the Hungarian tables, it's more or less equivalent to 3:37.7. 3:50 is around 3:33.1 - a time that no longer makes you a really major player.
            The reason I'm pointing this out is that most American fans here suffer from the mile delusion - they think times achieved in 1-mile races are much more impressive than they really are. The only reason 3:55 may feature in the world yearly lists is that the rest of the world hardly ever races at this distance any more.
            Another thing: the World Champs A qualifier, 3:34.90, is equivalent to something slightly under 3:52...
            Było smaszno, a jaszmije smukwijne...

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Croatia 1500 Berryhill/Lunn

              Krum has been training only for the 800 this year. In previous years he's not been completely focused on the 8. This does not mean he'll continue to focus on it, just that he chose to focus on it this year.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Croatia 1500 Berryhill/Lunn

                Insider,

                Can you remind me, how old is Krummenacker.

                I think he is only 22-23. If this is the case, focusing on the 8 this year is a very good idea.

                I hope he still pops into a couple more 15s this year as he might do surprisingly well.

                His training methods and racing schedules appear to be very well thought out with a long-term plan in mind. He also might be very well positioned to do extremely well next year in the 8.

                Then he can start a 4-year plan to be ready for a very good run in the 15. Everything sounds very well thought out. If this is the case, it is what is meant by "long-term planning".

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Croatia 1500 Berryhill/Lunn

                  >Can you remind me, how old is Krummenacker. I think he is only 22-23.<

                  He's 28.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Croatia 1500 Berryhill/Lunn

                    >>Can you remind me, how old is Krummenacker. I
                    >think he is only 22-23.<

                    He's 28.

                    Wow, I'm way off. In that case forget everything I said. He should be running more 15s. Time is running out and he should get ready for a good 15 for next year.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Croatia 1500 Berryhill/Lunn

                      why get ready for a good 15 when he can be the best 800 runner in the world? you move up wheb you can't hang with the speed guys anymore... not when you're the world indoor champ.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Croatia 1500 Berryhill/Lunn

                        Krummenacker plans to run the 1500 in Gateshead and Stockholm.

                        Walt Murphy

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Croatia 1500 Berryhill/Lunn

                          >why get ready for a good 15 when he can be the
                          >best 800 runner in the world? you move up wheb
                          >you can't hang with the speed guys anymore... not
                          >when you're the world indoor champ.

                          World indoor champ is impressive but it means much less than any major outdoor wins.

                          Your point about moving up only when your progress in an event has stalled is well taken. But, he obviously also has the ability to run a very good 15 - seen last year.

                          It just seems that at this stage he shouldn't put all of his eggs in one basket. He is a very good 800 runner but is he good enough to place in the big meets? Maybe.

                          He is obviously in very good 800 shape this year and I would think that that conditioning would transfer very well to the 15 - get a few 15s in and he may even be able to go sub 3:30.

                          Coe, Ovett, Cram all ran both. I see Krum as the same type of runner. He is in the postion to be able to have one of the top 10 in both this year and maybe even double next year. What a great boost that would give American middle distance running.

                          I'd hate for him to wait to run more 15s as injuries and age have a way of making a running career very short. Being 28 he should make his mark while he can.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Croatia 1500 Berryhill/Lunn

                            >Krummenacker plans to run the 1500 in Gateshead
                            >and Stockholm.

                            Walt Murphy

                            That's great news.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Croatia 1500 Berryhill/Lunn

                              Not sure what his (Krum) plans are but it makes sence that if you are a 28 yr old 800/1500 runner that you might want to work on your speed race (800) the year before the Olympics before moving up to the glamor race (1500).

                              So if the Olympics are your focus than you can go into them coming off a season where you ran x (6-10) number of sub 1:45 800's. Should help him in the 1500 the following season because the 1:52 800 split in the 1500 won't seem to be so fast.

                              I guess this is similar to Coe working as a 400 runner for a while to make him a better 800 guy, or Cram working on his 800 to make him a miler.

                              But if Krum wins the 800 at the Outdoor World Championships (I don't think that likely but he could medal) there will be temptation to stay at the 800 for another year and then move up. Tough call.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Croatia 1500 Berryhill/Lunn

                                I gotta disagree with the thought that Krum should move up to 1500 based on either his age or his 3:31. Even as Cyril says - training hard he may be able to duck under 3:30 - still 2-3 sec. behind the best in the world. I know we all want a good 1500 guy, but damn - we've got a 800m world champion (who beat the world record holder in that race) who has already run 1:44 this year and we want him to move up????? He is a good 1500m runner, and I look forward to him running a few this summer, but he is an 800m guy with a real chance to medal based on his strength and the always tough 800m rounds required at Worlds/Olympics.

                                Comment

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