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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Chambers named

    Kuha1 - thanks. I should have said 19th century in my posting, of course, not the last century. I guess I am still stuck in the olden times; or alternately my "velocity" is so great that by moving faster than light, I returned on the previous night!

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Chambers named

    Yes I do.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Chambers named

    <But this whole exercise of trying to "purge" the record books is doomed to failure. Sure, we "know" or can guess that some records are bad. (Legal proof, however, is much harder to come by than simple hunches or intuition.) However, some records may well have been set by "drug-users" when such use was completely LEGAL. As I've observed elsewhere, the use of performance enhancing substances of one form or another goes WAY back. The two greatest runners of the 1880s were both employed in the pharmacy trade and knew, for example, about stimulants. The REAL history of all this stuff may never be written...but its clear (to me at least) that the historical use of "supplemental" substances is more complex than we currently know, and that there is NO clear dividing line between "dirty" and "clean"--whatever line there is is in a vast margin of grey. In short: I see no fair way of pretending we can fully "cleanse" the record books. >

    Not that we are saying that they used performance enhancing drugs in the last century. But when you say the two greatest runners of the 1880s, I presume you mean Lon Myers and Walter George?

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Chambers named

    But this whole exercise of trying to "purge" the record books is doomed to failure. Sure, we "know" or can guess that some records are bad. (Legal proof, however, is much harder to come by than simple hunches or intuition.) However, some records may well have been set by "drug-users" when such use was completely LEGAL. As I've observed elsewhere, the use of performance enhancing substances of one form or another goes WAY back. The two greatest runners of the 1880s were both employed in the pharmacy trade and knew, for example, about stimulants. The REAL history of all this stuff may never be written...but its clear (to me at least) that the historical use of "supplemental" substances is more complex than we currently know, and that there is NO clear dividing line between "dirty" and "clean"--whatever line there is is in a vast margin of grey. In short: I see no fair way of pretending we can fully "cleanse" the record books.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Chambers named

    Oh, my mistake. 1960 was obviously an arbitrary pick on my part; many people feel it is basically the end of the era before athletes started using drugs.

    Maybe it should be an earlier date; I just feel that it would unfair to alot of the athletes who competed 40 years ago and more to expunge them as well.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Chambers named

    No Name: I believe that AYSM's comments above were ironic. Not much need to worry about Mr. Snell & co.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Chambers named

    I guessed this was the excuse they'd come up with.
    http://espn.go.com/oly/news/2003/1022/1644051.html

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Chambers named

    So what's the evidence the Snell used illegal drugs?

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Chambers named

    I agree with AYSM above. It ain't gonna happen. Picking 1960 as the cutoff point is utterly arbitrary. Why not roll the record book back to 1912 and REALLY clean house? Ridiculous.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Chambers named

    >>One alternative to
    >wiping the record books clean: reinstate the
    >records from 1960.>>

    What a great idea! Bikila, Snell, Hayes, Ryun, Oerter, Keino, Brumel. Buncha dirty dopers who never shoulda been allowed anywhere near the recordbook!

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Chambers named

    Agree with Zat0pek;

    The problem we are facing is so big that an avalanche of positive tests is needed to wake people up.

    One alternative to wiping the record books clean: reinstate the records from 1960.

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  • Zat0pek
    replied
    Re: Chambers named

    I know this is going to sound nuts (in addition to being incredibly naive and overly optimistic), but I hope they find positives for nearly every medalist in every event at the World's and a lot of current record holders. Why?

    Because this situation needs to hit absolute rock bottom before it can be fixed.

    In psychology, there is the concept of the "theraputic moment", that point at which things finally crash so badly that someone is forced to confront the problem. You see this with alcoholics and addicts; it usually takes something dramatic to force them to confront their problem, often after years of being addicted. That's what this sport needs. A theraputic moment.

    Then, wipe out the world records and start all over again.

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  • Utah
    replied
    Re: Chambers named

    Looks like Chambers shut down his website.

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  • michael lewis
    replied
    Re: Chambers named

    "Christie Gaines has the same coach too. I really liked both Christie and Kelly. Bummer!!!!!!!!!!"

    My suspicion has been for years that very few women can actually run sub-11 on their own merits alone. Without any unnatural advantages I don't think we'd see very many sub-11s out of Europe and some from African-American women though fewer than we have. I don't mean to imply Christie is using anything and I hope she isn't. But I do think we have a date with reality somewhere in the next few years where we have to adjust to slower times. Good!

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Chambers named

    Christie Gaines has the same coach too. I really liked both Christie and Kelly. Bummer!!!!!!!!!!

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