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  • Asterix
    replied
    Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

    > Asterix... what
    >can I say about you ?

    Well, you could start by addressing some of the questions I feel are valid against your arguement. Specifically "What trace minerals or vitamins are there that need to be taken in supplement form since they can not be obtained from a balanced and well-planned diet?"

    Have you thought about
    >going meet Obelix and hunt some Romans ?

    Don't need Obelix if I've got access to Getafix.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

    Dred - come back to the lab - I'm not done with you yet - you shouldn't be out among humans - they won't understand you like I do - come home - let me finish what we started.

    Leave a comment:


  • MJD
    replied
    Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

    >MDJ you're right, so is trakluva. Asterix... what
    >can I say about you ? Have you thought about
    >going meet Obelix and hunt some Romans ?

    Except Dred, I am making Asterix's argument.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dred
    replied
    Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

    MDJ you're right, so is trakluva. Asterix... what can I say about you ? Have you thought about going meet Obelix and hunt some Romans ?

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

    sorry for the typos, but I'm was multitasking and didn't spell check...hope ya'll understood the point!

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

    Here's my 1 cent (with the option to add 1 more in the future if needed):

    It's interesting reading these posts by people at various levels in the sport and with diverse interests.

    I personally have many good friends (some of who are involved in this present scandal) and have witnessed many of the biggest compeitions (Worlds and Olympics) first hand. Additionally, I've been fortunate to be around for some time in Europe and rub shoulders with some of the biggest stars in this sport.


    Not like if that is supposed to convince you, but this I do know from being around that environment for nearly a decade....many of the top people who get themselves involved in this stuff sadly find themselves there because they are looking to 'improve' in a material way due to the use of supplements. Many may 'feel' that they are trying to 'even out the playing field'- but it doesn't get any more even if you yourself are looking to annihilate and obliterate the fields!

    Plus, I am convinced, that you as an individual knows when things have substantially altered their performance. Our sport has the 'luxury' of having concrete measurements that we can look at and does not suffer from the subjectivity of other sports like Gymnastics or figure skating. An athlete takes substance A and they improve by X. They take it again, and they are back there.

    Over all my time around that environment (at the top of the sport), I am persuaded that people who are trying to use supplements to 'transform' their careers KNOW the deal! I believe that you can at least run fast and under 10 sec. for example in a men's 100m w/o drugs. HOWEVER, you may not be able to do it as often as we saw in times past (late 90s).

    yes, it's true that come companies lack the best quality control over their supplements (I've been told that people should use GNC only to buy multivitamins), but I have a had time dealing with such exotic and out of the way things such as latest stimulants, etc.

    But, I've learned not to be too bothered by the cheaters. It's sad and I think when caught they should be justly punished (even sued if they have made a substantial living off of fraud). But accountants do it, etc. I have little personal sympathy for these people (even though some are my close friends) as far as the sport goes, because they are stealing other peoples' money and are the source of a great level depression, etc. amongst others who are unfairly being beaten.

    Ok, so that was about 4 cents worth!

    Once more, feel free to tear it apart as suits your fancy

    Leave a comment:


  • MJD
    replied
    Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

    I'd be interested to see if anyone can
    >identify specific minerals, vitamins, or
    >whatever else, that an elite athlete needs that
    >can only be obtained through manufactured
    >supplements and not a proper diet. Unless
    >someone can, the whole supplement arguement is a
    >red herring.

    One of the defences of the people defending the modafinil positives is that the stuff really doesn't do anything-they just think it does. A placebo so to speak.

    Leave a comment:


  • Asterix
    replied
    Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

    Either that or have the
    >authorities provide a list of Approved
    >supplements and drop the banned list.

    But that's problematic right there. In the US, supplements are not regulated the way medicine is. If a company makes a batch of one supplement that contains steroids, then doesn't properly clean out the pipes before making a supposedly "approved" supplement, you are going to have contamination. There is no control system (such as regulation) to ensure this doesn't happen.

    The "authorities" are not, and should not be, in the business of pre-approving supplements for athletes to take.

    I'd be interested to see if anyone can identify specific minerals, vitamins, or whatever else, that an elite athlete needs that can only be obtained through manufactured supplements and not a proper diet. Unless someone can, the whole supplement arguement is a red herring.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

    Actually, having a central source provide a service of listing supplements which are deemed acceptable is an idea with some merit. Rather like the role of the US Food and Drug Administration, here in the states. Just as anyone could ingest poisonous bacteria if meat is not inspected, an athlete could ingest a troublesome substance when taking a supplement he bought at the local health food store.

    To me, this is the easiest way to avoid a situation where USADA or WADA invoke the "related substance" clause.

    On the subject of not taking any sort of supplements, it is a good thought, but not very likely. Elite athletes are pushing their bodies to extreme limits. Vitamins, minerals, protein, carbohydrates are just a few of the fuels they require to maintain the loads they are placing on their bodies. Supplementing your diet with additional protein is not that different from decathletes supplementing their fluid intake with intravenous fluids during hot and humid competitions.

    Those athletes wishing to excel and stay clean would be best served by having a lab which approves various supplements that has USADA/WADA backing.

    Either that or have the authorities provide a list of Approved supplements and drop the banned list. Anything not naturally occurring which is found in an athlete and is not on the Accepted list would be cause for investigation or punishment.

    Leave a comment:


  • MJD
    replied
    Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

    >Have you tried to train twice a
    >day and stay on your feet only with your steak
    >and potatoes ?

    Well...yes. Nutritionally much worse actually.

    >Try better...

    Don't have to.

    Leave a comment:


  • Alexander
    replied
    Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

    Well if you can´t make it on "steak and potatoes" you probably lack that kind of talent - face it!
    Ingesting 5000+ calories a day should contain whatever substances your body craves. If not -change your diet.

    Performance and fitness by ingesting pills is skating on thin ice. IF they work better than food they´re probably out of bounds.

    No labeling of "safe" supplements would work since the manufacturers (in spite of their medical appearance) are not governed or controlled in the same rigorous way medicines are.
    One out of four pills in your jar or one jar out of ten can be the one with performance-enhancing traces. How can you tell?
    It´s a two edged sword for the manufacturers: either their product really works (and gets banned) or it does not and nobody buys it but the "believers".

    Let´s stick to talent,training, sleep and nutrition

    Leave a comment:


  • Asterix
    replied
    Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

    >Why not try to protect athletes and let the
    >authorities (WADA or FDA or someone else) make a
    >control system to give a safety batch after a
    >quality control or something like that to
    >supplement companies so athletes would not be
    >responsible if any supplement is contaminated
    >without their knowledge?

    Since when is it the obligation of WADA or the FDA to babysit and handhold elite athletes by systematically testing and approving each and every of the dozens or hundreds of unregulated supplements available in the US, to say nothing of the world?

    Why are you suggesting athletes be completely absolved of taking any responsibility for making their own judgement calls, reading labels and not buying the hype that product XYZ will create specatcular muscle growth without using any banned substances?

    If I were an elite athlete, I'd find your characterization of me as a complete moron incapable of functioning in the modern world rather insulting.

    Leave a comment:


  • Asterix
    replied
    Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

    >The logic behind "you are an athlete and don't
    >take any supplements because you might get caught
    >for using some banned drug" is
    >ridiculous.

    Why is it ridiculous? Are you saying that athletes are complete idiots incapable of thinking for themselves? I tend to have a higher image of them.

    Have you tried to train twice a
    >day and stay on your feet only with your steak
    >and potatoes ?

    What supplements are the Kenyan and Ethiopian (etc.) kids who are running 27 - 28 minutes before their first paycheque taking that enable them to train two or three times a day?

    Who says elite athletes not taking supplements live off of steak and potatoes? What trace minerals or vitamins are there that need to be taken in supplement form since they can not be obtained from a balanced and well-planned diet?

    Leave a comment:


  • Dred
    replied
    Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

    Why not try to protect athletes and let the authorities (WADA or FDA or someone else) make a control system to give a safety batch after a quality control or something like that to supplement companies so athletes would not be responsible if any supplement is contaminated without their knowledge?

    Leave a comment:


  • Dred
    replied
    Re: Related substances, and contaminated supplements

    The logic behind "you are an athlete and don't take any supplements because you might get caught for using some banned drug" is ridiculous.

    Have you tried to train twice a day and stay on your feet only with your steak and potatoes ?

    Try better...

    Leave a comment:

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