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Why did Marion Jones cheat?

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  • #46
    Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

    >certainly i'd bet during the early years of the
    >programs, and especially the adolescents they pulled into the programs.. had no
    >idea what was going on. keep in mind east germany was an extremely sheltered
    >country and it's not like they were watching 60 minutes at night or reading up
    >on steroid exposés. it's clear from paperwork that the athletes at the highest
    >levels knew what was going on after a certain point (koch, gohr, etc.) but i'd
    >bet even they at first trusted what was being told to them.

    i haven't
    >personally read 'faust's gold' yet, but from what I've heard from others, it
    >says what was really going on was not exactly shared openly with the
    >athletes.





    Yes, I agree. Of course, when they first joined the regime as youngsters, they wouldn't have known what the hell they were getting into. But, by the time they were seniors and seasoned athletes, they'd surely begin to notice the changes within themselves. Also, if everyone else at the time (fans, athletes and coaches from other countries, etc) had a vague idea of what was going on, then surely they would have too.

    There were some athletes (not just in T&F) who didn't have a clue, but at the same time, there were some who definitely did know what went on.

    I've read Faust's Gold and it's very good. Highly recommend it.

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    • #47
      Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

      <I'm all for aggressively pursueing cheaters to the full extent of the rules, but if you have such incontravertable proof MJ cheated, why haven't you passed this on to USADA? It would certainly make this whole current process a lot quicker and straightforward.>

      I can have all the evidence in the world against her and she will still walk on the track in Athens. Always remember O.J...Jayson Williams...Ray Lewis..etc..etc!

      Money and the power baby!

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      • #48
        Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

        I can have all the evidence in the world
        >against her and she will still walk on the track in Athens. Always remember
        >O.J...Jayson Williams...Ray Lewis..etc..etc!>

        So you are now saying you don't really have definitive evidence but are rather just hypothesizing that if you did, she'd still be able to qualify through the US Olympic Trials and be able to run in Athens?

        What about remembering Kelli White, Kevin Toth and Tim Montgomery? I'd say they are a little more current and relevant than the names you mention.

        <Money and the power baby!>

        "Power baby"? Is Monty Jr involved in this somehow?

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

          "At the end of the day, no human woman has moved through 100 meters faster - PERIOD. She was the greatest of all time."

          You can say that again. The greatest single-season time-chopper of all time, from 10.96 down to 10.49, from 21.96 down to 21.34. AT age 28, after being world class for 6 years. Some ignoramuses say Flojo was never world class b4 88 (like a recent NYTimes Mag writer reporting on gene therapy) but that's crap. Olympic silver in 84 and WC silver in 87 is world class, it's not a term reserved for one person. And, since she clearly did something VERY RADICAL to obtain such insane improvements (again, no rocket science here), she is clearly the greatest performance enhancer of all time. Duh-oh.

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          • #50
            Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

            As I recall, didn't the Kersee/Flojo coaching relationship become severed at the '88 games? I recall that he was distancing himself from her at her finest moments.

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            • #51
              Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

              "I find it pitiful when people view the East Germans as being 'innocent' because "they didn't know what the state was doing to them". These people need to get friggin real!"

              Well put Jon! And while some did confess (and others left a paper trail) we shall judiciously refrain from revisiting those details

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              • #52
                Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

                "As I recall, didn't the Kersee/Flojo coaching relationship become severed at the '88 games? I recall that he was distancing himself from her at her finest moment"

                True, and he also had to know something out of this world was going on.....recalling T&FN coverage of the 88 Trials, Kersee remarked after a windy 10.60 heat, "Florence hasn't run fast yet"

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                • #53
                  Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

                  To mel and jon...

                  it's also pitiful that certain people defend Marion and co on the 'flimsy evidence' presented when that is exactly the kind of evidence that was used against the GDR athletes!

                  Whether you chose to believe it or not, many GDR athletes did not know they were being doped. The German courts upheld this, even though they ruled that they were indeed doped.

                  Anyway, this topic isnt about the GDR, nor is it about other tainted groups like the Kersee camp in the 80's.. allegedly. No, this topic is about Marion and Co, who are finally getting their come uppence.
                  "If Gaby worked as hard with the weights as she did with her tongue she'd have a different concept of beauty. To get performances like mine, she'd have to sacrifice some of her good looks. The women of the west dont work as hard as we do" JK

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                  • #54
                    Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

                    >it's also pitiful that certain people defend Marion and co
                    >on the 'flimsy evidence' presented when that is exactly the kind of evidence
                    >that was used against the GDR athletes!



                    Lol... there's not many people left defending Marion! I wouldn't be surprised if her lawyer left her!

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

                      I'm lost here. Is there ANY hard evidence against Marion? Why would you NOT defend her? If I were accused of something and it was all hearsay, I'd like people not to jump to conclusions.

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                      • #56
                        Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

                        >I'm lost here. Is there ANY hard evidence against Marion? Why would you NOT
                        >defend her? If I were accused of something and it was all hearsay, I'd like
                        >people not to jump to conclusions.


                        if they have training calendars which have dates listed for the meets marion competed in, and her results.. and steroid drug test results with 'm. jones' or similar listed.. checks from her (maybe more than that one mentioned so far).. and an alphabet soup schedule that Conte later testifies refer to the various substances that have been postulated.. and Conte says he sold them to her along with the other athletes there's more concrete evidence of.. what would you say then? these are all likely pieces of the puzzle. the only thing they probably dont have on her are emails.

                        her lawyer keeps saying she didnt fail any drug tests -- well, no shit, they were masking it! guess what those BALCO-initiated drug tests were for? and she's conveniently been out of competition during the THG testing cycle, and there are possibly no samples of hers available to re-test.

                        in my opinion, even what has been shown so far is a mountain of circumstantial evidence that would have anyone in any other situation being thought of as likely guilty -- of SOME wrongdoing, anyway. i'm not saying to bust her without a full fair trial, but what exactly are the laws keeping the USOC from not allowing ANY suspicious athletes to go to Athens? Can she really sue for that? It's not like corporations need any legal finality to terminate future endorsement arrangements with stars, either -- if someone is in hot water, they can bail too..


                        EDIT: please don't reply to this saying 'but they dont have all that evidence' - we dont know, true, but one can hardly call this idle baseless speculation

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

                          The problem with this internet pontificating is that we really don't know what exactly they have on her or the others. They seem to think it is pretty solid. The opposing lawyers say it is not convincing and flawed.

                          There does appear to be circumstantial evidence of cheating and there is that "where there's smoke, there's usually fire" concept, but we really need to see more before we can pass absolute judgement one way or the other.

                          Personally, I think there's something there and she likely will get nailed for it, but I can't defend that with anything more than "I think so".

                          As basehead pointed out and I've mentioned before, her lawyers keep repeating the line she has never failed any drug tests. That is quite different than never having taken banned substances and I think there's a reason why they harp that one line.

                          <<but what exactly are the laws keeping the USOC from not allowing ANY suspicious athletes to go to Athens? Can she really sue for that? >>

                          I'm not sure, but I don't think there needs to be any law relating to the USOC. If, as Dick Pound stated in one of the recent reports, the IOC will not allow athletes currently in dispute to participate even if their case has yet to be resolved, then there's not a damn thing any court in the US can do about it. They have no authority to go to Athens and make a lane available to anyone (barring force of arms), even if the USOC takes the athlete in question with them on the team.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

                            "but one can hardly call this idle baseless speculation"

                            I totaly agree that this requires further investigation, and NO coverups, but put yourself in her place. If you are accused of something you didn't do, and you publically deny it, wouldn't you want to be given the benefit of the DOUBT? Now, if HARD evidence comes up, throw the book. If and when they do throw the book at Marion, USA track and field will go down the toilet with her, at least this (Olympic) year. And that's probably as it should be. Sigh.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

                              >put yourself in
                              >her place. If you are accused of something you didn't do, and you publically
                              >deny it, wouldn't you want to be given the benefit of the DOUBT?



                              Well USADA would have to have reason to believe her (when she claims her innocence) before they just give her the benefit of the doubt. If she really is innocent, then why isn't she offering herself up for thorough testing, blood testing, or even a lie-detector test?!

                              At the moment, her (and her lawyer's) choice of words have been very suspect. They keep focusing on the fact that Marion has never failed a test (duh, maybe because she didn't compete in 2003 - the big THG year), and they also keep saying that USADA have no right to ban an athlete without a positive test. Maybe if USADA had Marion's samples from before 2003 and used the new-found THG test on them, then things would be different. But Marion knows she's safe in requesting for her previous samples to be re-tested because those samples are more than likely now gone. She's just putting up a front to make herself sound more innocent. But I digress....

                              As it stands, Marion looks far from innocent. Her choice of men (who have both now been caught for doping violations), her choice of coaches (Charlie Francis - 'nuff said; Trevor Graham - who has had 6 athletes fail tests since 1999), and her choice of words in the press (which just smack of a guilty conscience) is what makes me think that she's guilty. Of course as yet, nothing has been proved, but the odds are stacked against her.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

                                CNN has been all over this in the last couple of days.

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