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Why did Marion Jones cheat?

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  • Jon
    replied
    Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

    >Most( if not all) of them knew precisely what was going on.
    >Exceptinal athievements gave them high position in the society and they went
    >after it. The only difference between them and the western drug users is that
    >they did not have to personally pay for it.


    Exactly!! Exceptional sporting achievements also gave them the chance to travel (to international competitions), which isn't something that many people living under the communist nations had a chance to do.

    Leave a comment:


  • Grazerism
    replied
    Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

    Sprintstatsman, I made exactly the same points you made--scroll up and see. But it doesn't changed the "qualitative difference."

    And I still get no answers about unidentified pills being given to very young kids, sports doctors criminally convicted, the German compensation program for damaged athletes. These are all matters of public record. And I'm not being aggressive here, I would really like to hear what much more knowledgeable people have to say about all this.

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  • Rob
    replied
    Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

    ..

    Leave a comment:


  • Pego
    replied
    Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

    For once I have to side with Rob (in spite of him calling me a moron). Krieger is a case in itself. Nobody is changed from a woman into a man by drugs. A woman will get a deep voice, becomes muscular and so on, but remains a woman (unless, of course, she also visits a sex change surgeon). Second issue that some people here are preoccupied with is a notion, that all those Soviet block athletes were just pawns in hands of those "mad scientist doctors" and the state machinery. Most( if not all) of them knew precisely what was going on. Exceptinal athievements gave them high position in the society and they went after it. The only difference between them and the western drug users is that they did not have to personally pay for it.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

    <<I am also familiar with the Heidi
    >Krieger case to which you make reference: You should check her chromosome /
    >medical records pre-doping, rather than just reading the newspapers, and then
    >you would see why the transition to "Andreas" was not all that surprising.
    >There are such genetic abnormalities throughout the world - to suggest that
    >drugs turned her into a man is preposterous.>>

    Thanks for backing up something I've long thought but have never voiced before. I think this case is being approached in a backwards fashion. The reason Krieger was chosen by the East German machine (was it hochschule fur korperkultur, or something like that?) was precisely becuase she had all the manly tendencies that would make her into a great shot putter. I'm sure that exploitation of people like this (in many totalitarian nations) explains why so many of those programs had such great women athletes as much as their drug-taking.

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  • Rob
    replied
    Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

    ..

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  • Sprintstatman
    replied
    Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

    >There is a qualitative difference between systematic, state-sponsored doping and the abuse of performance-enhancing drugs by a minority of individual athletes.

    Well, your use of the word 'minority' is moot, but aside from that...

    You can condemn the GDR system as morally corrupt, but then must also condemn cheating individuals in free countries with equal force. The fact that those individual cheaters were living in a morally superior system means their crime is all the more heinous.

    The reverse also applies. The state system did not inform its athletes what they were taking or gave them no choice in the matter, so the athletes who benefitted cannot be condemned with such force as we condemn either the system that bred them or their free rivals who chose to cheat.

    This is a zero-sum morality game. The "qualitative difference" depends on a personal view about what is worse, systematic cheating by a state or the abuse of freedom by individuals.

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  • Jon
    replied
    Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

    >I find it sad that we'll never know what Petra Felke could have really thrown,
    >given her ludicrous 80m (262"!) mark. 240?



    I remember hearing that Petra Felke nearly ended up as a long-jumper! When she was in her teens, she could jump pretty good for her age (somewhere around 6m or so), but she gave the javelin a try, and threw around 40m... she's been a javelin thrower ever since! (or at least WAS a javelin thrower).

    Wonder what she's up to today... Rob?

    Leave a comment:


  • tafnut
    replied
    Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

    I find it sad that we'll never know what Petra Felke could have really thrown, given her ludicrous 80m (262"!) mark. 240?

    Leave a comment:


  • JZed
    replied
    Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

    Since everyone seems to be adding English common law and American jurisprudence into the Marion Jones flap, maybe we can arrive at a conclusion something like this: If MJ had been indicted in this instance and tried for her "crime", she would most probably be found "not guilty" since there would be reasonable doubt. If MJ has yet to be to be taken to task for her indiscretions, she will probably be found "liable" by a preponderance of the evidence. In any event she has no basis to "sue" anyone nor is she "innocent".

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  • mojo
    replied
    Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

    So Rob, what do you know of Ruth Fuchs? I also liked her.
    It's funny- I beleive most if not all of these GDR athletes were on something but I still admire them. I think they were in a different sitaution than the cheaters of today. of course I would probably feel quite differently if I got a silver medal behind them!

    Leave a comment:


  • Grazerism
    replied
    Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

    There is a qualitative difference between systematic, state-sponsored doping and the abuse of performance-enhancing drugs by a minority of individual athletes.

    In Germany, a huge group of former athletes sued for the physical damage they received from GDR "sports doctors," and won. Some of these "sports doctors" have been convicted as criminals. Rob and Andrea T, what's your take on this?

    Leave a comment:


  • Sprintstatman
    replied
    Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

    The GDR ran a state-sponsored doping programme which brought its athletes to the line juiced. Market economics had the same effect in the West. It might make us feel morally superior to the East Germans that our athletes bought their own drugs on the black market rather than as receiving them as part of a state programme, but the effect on the sport is just the same.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrea_T
    replied
    Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

    Can I just add, there was a lot of illicit trade going on between East and West Germany, and a lot of information was 'shared', more so then people think...

    Leave a comment:


  • Rog
    replied
    Re: Why did Marion Jones cheat?

    A current question,
    >which is known to VERY few people, would be "Which country has Sabine Busch
    >just emigrated to for the next 2 years?"

    Rob, have you booked yourself in for counselling to deal with your withdrawal symptoms and abandonment issues?

    I grew up watching East German athletes on TV in the 80s, and have a lot of their great performances on tape. The other day I was watching my recording of Marita Koch in the 1986 European Championships, and as she was poised on the blocks I was struck by how slim she was. The same goes for Gohr, Wockel etc (although I understand that Stecher was an exception). Today's women sprinters sometimes look more like middleweight boxers in terms of physique (Kelli White, Chryste Gaines are good examples). Is this upper body over-development beneficial to sprinting? I can't see that you have to be that big to run fast...

    Leave a comment:

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