Best 400m/400m hurdles female specimen in history?...

[Powell]

Re: Best 400m/400m hurdles female specimen in history?...

I don't see the historical perspective as very relevant in this case. For a 49 second 400 meter runner, 56.62 is VERY poor, no matter what the WR was at the time. Szewinska was only slightly slower than Perec on the flat at the time she ran the hurdles (49.52 for Szewinska in 1977, 49.28 for Perec in 1995), yet even with her crappy technique, Perec ran well over 3 seconds faster. While I suppose Szewinska could have broken the hurdles WR, weak as it was back then, if she'd stuck with it, I don't think she could have been a truly great 400 hurdler.

[utkvol80]

Re: Best 400m/400m hurdles female specimen in history?...

Sandra Farmer Patrick?

[eldrick]

Re: Best 400m/400m hurdles female specimen in history?..

>Don't forget that JJK did play around at the 400H back
when she was doing everything at UCLA. In '85 she was the NCAA runner-up and
took 4th at both Van Damme and ISTAF, and at 55.05 was No. 11 on the yearly
world list.<


i'm more interested in her potential as a 400H in '88...

[Jon]

Re: Best 400m/400m hurdles female specimen in history?..

http://www.athleticslinks.com/art/jjk.php

<<While we're on the subject of potential in events, Bobby predicted that you'd break the world record in the 400mH. Do you think that a sub-53 time was possible?

JJK: I never totally wanted to be a 400m hurdler, and that type of attitude made it diffcult for me to ever know how fast I could have gone in the 400mH. I thought that in 1994 I was in better shape for the 400mH, but mentally I was never on same page as Bobby.>>




She had all the attributes - she just lacked the desire for the event.

[Powell]

Re: Best 400m/400m hurdles female specimen in history?...

I doubt JJK had enough endurance to set a WR at 400 hurdles. 2:08 doesn't show that great a potential. No doubt she could have run significantly faster than she did, but as for sub-53, I don't see that at all.

[eldrick]

Re: Best 400m/400m hurdles female specimen in history?...

remember 800 is the next race distance up from 400 & we only use it for convenience

she didn't actually need the full 800 endurance - if her endurance extended upto 450 - 500m, that is all she would have required to be strong in a 400H

[Powell]

Re: Best 400m/400m hurdles female specimen in history?...

True, but from comparing her PBs at 200 (very much world class) and 800 (good for a heptathlete, but mediocre on a stand-alone basis), it looks like she didn't have much endurance and probably wouldn't be a great 400 meter runner if she tried it. She had strong hurdling background, so I'm not sure her 400 hurdles times would go down very significantly with more practice.

[eldrick]

Re: Best 400m/400m hurdles female specimen in history?...

i've never actually seen a 400 time for her, but with a 22.30 background & good over-distance endurance, i would have expected her to be at least capable of 50.5 - 51.00 at her best

now, usually you add ~ 2.5s onto that for a H - for her it may be less, as with her brilliant hurdles ability, she should have been a lot more efficient in that race than the others mentioned:

so i'd say she was easily capable of:

~ 53.0 - 53.5

& with specialising in the event, building up endurance, i see no reason why he couldn't have got down to mid-52

[Powell]

Re: Best 400m/400m hurdles female specimen in history?...

>i've never actually seen a 400 time for her, but with a 22.30 background & good
>over-distance endurance, i would have expected her to be at least capable of
>50.5 - 51.00 at her best


Compare her to Kratochvilova. JJK was only 0.3s slower over 200, but 15 seconds over 800! The difference at 400 should be halfway between the two (in percentage terms), which would mean around 51.6 for Jackie. I'd say she would have had a hard time getting to 54 seconds, never mind 53.

[eldrick]

Re: Best 400m/400m hurdles female specimen in history?...

i doubt JJK ever ran a 800 other than in a heptathlon, so i wouldn't put too much credence into a 2'08

if she'd trained specifically for endurance ( with 400H in mind ), i'd try your calculations again with 2'00 - 2'05

i must add i find it almost impossible to believe that a 22.30 gal who trained for 400 flat couldn't run sub-51

[Andrea_T]

Re: Best 400m/400m hurdles female specimen in history?...

Tough one to call because most of it's hypothetical.

I agree with most of the names mentioned above. However, I would say some of those didnt have the technical aptitude to really impact on the event, and this ability is crucial in 400m hurdling.
Busch is an obvious example here of someone who was stunning on the flat but didnt have the hurdling ability IMO, despite WR and gold in Rome. She was far superior to the 3 400m hurdles medalists over the flat in 88, despite her injury, yet she missed out. She was superior to Stepanova on the flat in 86 yet lost to her in Stuttgart. She lost out because the others were better hurdlers. We also have to remember she had a number of years in that event, so actually had the chance to prove her mettle. She did to some extent, but I see others as having more potential had they had the same number of years in the event.
I would have to lump Perec in this category too, not having any technical background. I can't see her ever being smooth over the hurdles, but then again, her flat spped was so good maybe she didnt need it!

I would put my money on those who had hurdling ability over 100mh or were technically proven in other events. Peronally I cant picture Quirot over the hurdles, her running style just doesnt suit it. Privalova had a contrived runing style, and this does suit the 400mh. Drechsler has proven technical ability and is used to stride patterns in the LJ. It's worth bearing in mind her 200m, 100mh and 800 outdoor pb's are all better than Privalova's too. She also had a good stride length and the advantage of her height/leg length. Wockel must also be inlcuded as a potential talent here.
JJK ran the 400mh in her career, and she had great aptitude for learning technical events, but compared to Privalova/Drechsler/Wockel she probably lacked that extra bit of something.

[Powell]

Re: Best 400m/400m hurdles female specimen in history?...

i must add
>i find it almost impossible to believe that a 22.30 gal who trained for 400
>flat couldn't run sub-51

I find it perfectly possible. I doubt Marlies Gohr could have ever got close to 51 seconds, despite having run 21.74. Now JJK wasn't a typical short sprint specialist like Gohr, but the problem is with the "trained for 400 flat" part. Are we actually talking about her potential under the hypothetical scenario where she gives up heptathlon and concentrates on 400/400H? If so, then yes, I would change my estimate... still I don't believe she'd set a WR, though.

[eldrick]

Re: Best 400m/400m hurdles female specimen in history?...

JJK is no gohr !

could gohr have run 2'08 at the end of 2 tiring,sweltering days ???


i doubt it was possible for even JJK to combine heptathlon,LJ & 400/400H simultaneously !

concentrate only on 400+H & i have no doubt 50+ & mid-52 was on

[gh]

Re: Best 400m/400m hurdles female specimen in history?...

>i've never actually seen a 400 time for her, but with a 22.30 background & good
>over-distance endurance, i would have expected her to be at least capable of
>50.5 - 51.00 at her best>>

At the '85 NCAA she anchored UCLA's 4x4 w/ a 51.9 (6th).

[trackcadet]

Re: Best 400m/400m hurdles female specimen in history?..

marie jose perec and irina privalova. if only perec had not been ill and turn to hurdles, the sydney olympics 400h final would be the race of the century for women. privalova v perec, what an interesting race to watch.