Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

[Guest]

Re: Track History

>Of course a top of his game Ryun would have run much better. And of course the altitude made a big difference. Keep in mind while most of Squire's post are good, he's very, very PC. To the point of saying things like race doesn't exist, etc. >

I have not read all of Squire's postings, but cannot understand why anyone should claim or take him to task for being PC. "Western" track circles abound with (faintly) racist comments. Take the case of Keino remarking to someone after his 1967 Los Angeles loss to Ryun something like "Oh, that Jim Ryun - he run too fast" - in T&FN. I did not see a comment in T&FN following the 1968 Olympics from Ryun saying "Oh that Keino - he run too fast".

Too many comments trying to denigrate Keino. Did he or did he not pass out at a parade in his honor in Kenya following the 1968 Olympics?-reported in T&FN. Did he require treatment/surgery? I don't know, but why should the comments of Jipcho or Liquori be taken as gospel truth? In my book, Keino was a greater athlete than either of these two, and his subsequent humanitarian acts show him to be a great human being also. Just leave it at the fact that Keino ran a fantastic 1500 m in the Mexico City finals, and that a dream race there or elsewhere on neutral territory between a fully fit Ryun and Keino (throw in Elliott/Snell/El G amongst others), could be discussed for ever anon.

[Guest]

Re: Track History

Hey, the Irish were discriminated against in the US, but they were never considered non-whites. That's why the signs read "No Dogs or Irish", even when blacks WERE allowed into parks etc. in NYC back in those bygone days. It's interesting that some PC 'historians' have decided to lie and add 'blacks' to some of those old signs, forgetting that 'blacks' wasn't the term in vogue at the time. It is also amusing that some radial Jewish sects do not consider themselves, European jews(Ashkenazi), to be white.

Ryun vs. Keino? Beaten to death. I think the hounding from the press among other things flattened Ryun after Mexico City. At top shape, it would have been hard for him to win at that altitude against a runner like Keino, born and raised there. Maybe if Ryun had spent the better part of two years at altitude, like Gammoudi mentioned above, he could have run much faster, or even have won. But that wasn't feasible, and it's all conjecture. Up until that point, Keino hadn't really ever finished close to Ryun in any of their races, so it would seem that the conditions in Mexico City along with Ryun's condition played a significant role. Ryun seems to be one of those runners that people either love or hate. Maybe it's all the potential that was never developed, who knows? What we do know is Keino won the 1500. Four years later, he was second, not a bad record at that distance. Was it a week era after Ryun pretty much retired in 69? Yes, he had his comebacks, but as promising as he looked before the 72 Games, he was knocked on his keyster once he got there. So, was it a weak era overall after Ryun retired? I think so. I think it took fast races by Bayi to snap everyone out of the doldrums.

[Guest]

Re: Track History

>Hey, the Irish were discriminated against in the
>US, but they were never considered non-whites.

See "How the Irish Became White" by Noel Ignatiev ( http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 12-3083017 ) and judge for yourself. In any case, definitions of racial idenitity are fluid and changing, which by itself lends credence to the theory that they are not biological but societal.

[Guest]

Re: Track History

Noel Ignatiev is a well known white hating Zionist. He's the 'professor' who states that the white race should be exterminated. And he isn't talking about the white race as a concept. He also doesn't consider jews like himself to be white, no doubt to conform to his racist views. He's a complete crackpot. He also lies about his background, claiming to have worked as an iron worker at a steel mill, etc. Turned out he worked for awhile in an office at a steel mill, helping a relative who handled payroll. Ignore him, he's an ass.

[Guest]

Re: Track History

Thank you! I merely passed this on from a prof. who I assumed would know better -- apparently not!

[Guest]

Re: Track History

>Thank you! I merely passed this on from a prof.
>who I assumed would know better -- apparently
>not!

No prob. I read the article before. But if you look into Ignatiev's background, he's a bad guy with an axe to grind. Kind of like some of the guy's who take these posts way too seriously! : }

Me? I just settle in and get ready for the World Athletics Final, and the long withdrawal sure to follow. Sniff sniff.

[Guest]

Re: Track History

Withdrawal? What are you talking about? There's a whole season of HS & collegiate XC starting, plus fall marathons, and then indoor . . . it never ends, thank God!

[Guest]

Re: Track History

Withdrawal from the hard stuff : )! The world class folks out on the track trying to clobber each other. Sure, I get a fix from everything else, but I am a fan who reserves his greatest enthusiasm for the top level. ; |

[pickle47]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

Allow me to wade in and paint in one little corner of this obviously huge (and, for some, very emotional) subject: Keino won the '68 Olympic 1500 because he ran it in the only way he could that gave him a chance of winning AND because circumstances provided him with his only means of winning.
a) The Games were at altitude. Put them anywhere close to sea level and no matter how Keino runs, Ryun (even a possibly weakened Ryun) cleans his clock just like he did the two previous years. And Keino knows it.
b) Is Ryun weaker? Probably, but does Keino know this, or know the extent of Ryun's illness and recovery? Probably not enough to help him. He has to pursue a tactic that will give him the best chance of victory.
c) Keino employs the first "team tactics" seen in the Games 1500. Can he pull this off alone? Doubtful. Jipcho sacrifices himself for the "team leader".
d) The final puzzle piece is the tactics themselves. A bold break is always risky; it's do or die. Again, running the race any other way exposes Keino to Ryun's kick. Run these tactics under circumstances different from the three above, i.e., at sea level, against a strong Ryun and without any pacing help, and Keino loses. But with all four of these synergistic conditions or choices in play, Keino wins.
I'm not trying to short Keino here. You can't get to the Olympic final or finish second to Ryun in races on good looks and Wheaties. I just don't think he could have won any other way and some of that stuff, like altitude, you can take credit for; you can only take advantage of it.

[Guest]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

Pickle, Ben Jipcho said as much, in "The Olympiad" episode on the African runners, and in several interviews. He was always saying he was sorry that he sacrificed himself. He felt that after that day, Keino stopped acknowledging the assistance Jipcho lent by taking off from the gun.

Yes, there are those who always blast Ryun for his performance in Mexico City, but it's highly unlikely Keino would have been able to handle Ryun at sea level. Despite what some claim, there is no way that Mexico's altitude hampered Keino, a man born and raised at an altitude higher than Mexico City's, as much as it hampered sea level athletes like Ryun.

People aren't aware of the amount of time Ryun lost to mono, nor the problems that some have afterward. Here's an interesting link that goes into Ryun's problems, along with those other world class athletes have experienced when sidelined with this miserable condition: http://www.serpentine.org.uk/advice/coach/fh22.php

" .... Jim Ryun (former mile and half- mile world record holder), when given the all-clear by his doctor, trained every other day for three months, then two days consecutively with the third off for two months, and thereafter twice a day."

[Guest]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

>Allow me to wade in and paint in one little
>corner of this obviously huge (and, for some,
>very emotional) subject: Keino won the '68
>Olympic 1500 because he ran it in the only way he
>could that gave him a chance of winning AND
>because circumstances provided him with his only
>means of winning.
a) The Games were at
>altitude. Put them anywhere close to sea level
>and no matter how Keino runs, Ryun (even a
>possibly weakened Ryun) cleans his clock just
>like he did the two previous years. And Keino
>knows it.

Yeah, well if Keino suffers NO ALTITUDE EFFECT AT ALL, Ryun still has to run a near-WR time to beat him. Keino put himself at #2 on the all-time list in that race, and no one seems to understand this.


b) Is Ryun weaker? Probably, but
>does Keino know this, or know the extent of
>Ryun's illness and recovery? Probably not enough
>to help him. He has to pursue a tactic that will
>give him the best chance of victory.

Was he really weaker? He ran the 4th best time of his life, even with the crippling altitude. If (and I stress IF) the altitude slowed him by 1 second per lap, he ran the equivalent of 3:34.0. If not, he couldn't have beaten Keino in Death Valley.

c) Keino
>employs the first "team tactics" seen in the
>Games 1500. Can he pull this off alone?
>Doubtful. Jipcho sacrifices himself for the
>"team leader".

And Ryun could have followed him, but didn't. It's not as if Jipcho actually picked up Keino and carried him -- Keino still had to run.

[Guest]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

Yeah, well if Keino suffers
>NO ALTITUDE EFFECT AT ALL, Ryun still has to run
>a near-WR time to beat him. Keino put himself at
>#2 on the all-time list in that race, and no one
>seems to understand this.

Keino's #2 time was still almost 2 seconds behind Ryun's best. That is important.


Was he really weaker? He
>ran the 4th best time of his life, even with the
>crippling altitude. If (and I stress IF) the
>altitude slowed him by 1 second per lap, he ran
>the equivalent of 3:34.0. If not, he couldn't
>have beaten Keino in Death Valley.

He was slowed by more than 1 second per lap at the end. Don't be disingenuous. The fact that Ryun and Tummler both said they had never run so hard, and had never been so tired after a race is telling. The alititude had less of an effect on Keino and other runners from high altitude. How could it not? There were individuals medaling in some of the races that hadn't made much impact before the games, and didn't make much impact after. You don't think Ron Clarke couldn't have run faster if the race had been at sea level? Do you have some reversed vertebrae in your back that allow you to bend completely backward until your head reaches the floor, in order to be PC?

And Ryun could have
>followed him, but didn't. It's not as if Jipcho
>actually picked up Keino and carried him -- Keino
>still had to run.

No, Ryun would have fallen apart, like other sea level athletes did who tried to follow the altitude guys in the 5 and 10.

You have never run at altitude, competed at altitude. Ever. If you had, you wouldn't post some of the silliness you have. If you have competed at altitude and persist in such silliness, you have an agenda. A dishonest one.

There's no guarantee that Ryun would have won at sea level, but there's no guarantee that Keino would have won no matter what. Looking at a healthy Ryun's finishes in fast races, compared to Keino's finishes in his fastest races, Keino would have been hard pressed to hang with Ryun at sea level over the last 300.

The Kenyan lovers are having a hard time of it. They have to hone their excuse skills by squabbling over Keino, etc., in order to get ready to defend what happened with Lagat, Chepchumba, mysterious illnesses at the WC's (athletes pulled the same day as Lagat's test, hmmm) and miraculous recoveries.

[Guest]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

I'll add to "two cents" post. Ryun's 3:33 was in miserable conditions. Miserable. The conditions were one reason that Keino could only run 3:37 behind Ryun. The slow first lap and conditions are the reason Ryun didn't run 3:30. Most track fans, even those who are not fans of Ryun, realize he was a runner capable of much faster times than his records. That's why they feel he'd have beaten Keino, even if he was sub par from the mono. Keino might have been able to run a faster 1500 at sea level, but he was not equipped to run 3:30 or faster. Ryun was. He finished up his record run in 2:46 for the last 3 laps. The altitude aided Keino's speed some think, over his last lap. His finish was still nothing like Ryun's in faster races.

BTW, Keino lover squires should go to the link the guy posted regarding Ryun and mono. Ryun couldn't have been near his best condition when the trials and games rolled around, based on how he had to stagger his workouts once he was allowed to start running again. No wonder he had no pop when he tried to run the 800 and got smoked.

Ryun probably should have been the first sub 3:50 runner. He was the first runner that demonstrated the potential. That's another reason so many feel that he would have beaten Keino at sea level. No one ever seems to think Keino was a potential sub 3:50 miler.

[pickle47]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

I'm not going to defend my opinion too strongly, Mr. Squire. It's just my opinion. As I stated toward the end of my post, I'm not trying to take anything away from Keino; he's got the goods (and the medal). My point was that if you take away ANY of the four conditions that I presented, I don't think Keino would have won. And the only one he can take real credit for, besides his obvious talent and hard work, is the tactic of getting away from the field before the finish. And I don't think he could have done THAT effectively without Jipcho. Put the race at sea level and he loses, even with the tactics and Ryun weak. Put a strong Ryun in the race, one who had the ability to train for racing at altitude, which we have to believe he would have done in spades, and Ryun would have gone with Keino or been able to stay quite close and out kick him.

But such is the stuff that history is made of. Anyone remember the article in "the bible" where the writer discussed the happenstance nature of having the Olympics every four years and how some runner's and thrower's careers would have changed drastically if the Olympics were just one year earlier every cycle. Something like Lasse Viren doesn't get the Munich double, Vaatinen does. He doesn't get the Montreal double either because it's a down year for him, but Yifter does. Then Yifter gets it again in '79 and becomes the first 5-10 double doubler. Liquori gets the gold in '71, being fit and healthy rather than injured in '72. And so it goes. I know we can't rewrite history, but it's sure fun second-guessing it.

[Guest]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

>

Yeah, well if Keino suffers
>NO ALTITUDE
>EFFECT AT ALL, Ryun still has to run
>a near-WR
>time to beat him. Keino put himself at
>#2 on
>the all-time list in that race, and no
>one
>seems to understand this.

Keino's #2
>time was still almost 2 seconds behind Ryun's
>best. That is important.

But what was important is what he did on that day.


Was he really
>weaker? He
>ran the 4th best time of his life,
>even with the
>crippling altitude. If (and I
>stress IF) the
>altitude slowed him by 1 second
>per lap, he ran
>the equivalent of 3:34.0. If
>not, he couldn't
>have beaten Keino in Death
>Valley.

He was slowed by more than 1 second
>per lap at the end. Don't be disingenuous. The
>fact that Ryun and Tummler both said they had
>never run so hard, and had never been so tired
>after a race is telling. The alititude had less
>of an effect on Keino and other runners from high
>altitude. How could it not? There were
>individuals medaling in some of the races that
>hadn't made much impact before the games, and
>didn't make much impact after. You don't think
>Ron Clarke couldn't have run faster if the race
>had been at sea level? Do you have some reversed
>vertebrae in your back that allow you to bend
>completely backward until your head reaches the
>floor, in order to be PC?

OK . . . so Ryun's 3:37 was worth BETTER than 3:33 at sea level. So how do his mono and hamstring problems slow him down so much? By your estimation, he ran the best race of his life.

And as far as Clarke goes, I'll ask you the same question that Temu asked the press in '68: "Where were the mountains in Kingston?" In other words, what's the excuse when Temu beat Clarke in the '66 Commonwealth Games?

And Ryun could
>have
>followed him, but didn't. It's not as if
>Jipcho
>actually picked up Keino and carried him
>-- Keino
>still had to run.

No, Ryun would
>have fallen apart, like other sea level athletes
>did who tried to follow the altitude guys in the
>5 and 10.

You have never run at altitude,
>competed at altitude. Ever. If you had, you
>wouldn't post some of the silliness you have. If
>you have competed at altitude and persist in such
>silliness, you have an agenda. A dishonest
>one.

How do you know where I've been or what I've done? Do you work for John Ashcroft?

I'll admit I've never run 3:37. And neither have you. We are all just theorizing here, but I try to back mine up with the facts as they happened.