Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

[Guest]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

I’m going to sum up my statements on this one last time and then do us all a favor by letting it rest.

Apparently many believe that Jim Ryun was somehow cheated out of a gold medal at the 1968 Olympics, citing altitude, illness, injury, and team tactics. My responses:

1) If the altitude was so suffocating for 1500m runners, then Ryun ran the greatest race of his life (and one of the greatest of all time). Estimations run anywhere from four to eight seconds disadvantage, but the next three runners after Ryun ran just 2.5, 2.8 and 1.6 seconds off their pre-Mexico City bests. Only those who ran poorly in the final ran more than four seconds off their bests, and those who approached eight seconds were near last place. While the effects of altitude were pronounced in the longer races (with lowlanders still winning medals in all of them), middle distance appears affected less than expected; notice that all the 800m finalists set PRs. Three years later Liquori ran 6.1 seconds slower than his yearly best in winning the Pan-Am games 1500, and he had done no altitude training.

2) If Ryun indeed ran so well, then the effects of his mono and hamstring problems are overstated. If he did not run well due to those problems, then the effects of altitude are overstated. In any case, his sudden downturn after Mexico City must have been due to more factors than just injury and illness, since he ran better while dealing with them in Mexico City than he ever did afterwards.

3) Team tactics were undoubtedly a factor, but possibly overstated. Certainly it was not the first or last time that such tactics have been used in a championship final, but only this race and the ’88 OG 10k have been described as unfair. Jipcho did not act as a rabbit for Keino or decoy for Ryun, as neither runner went with him. When Keino went to the front, Ryun let him to build an insurmountable lead. Keino did have a tactical advantage, but Ryun could have minimized it and didn’t.

4) It has been said that many medalists in 1968 from high-altitude nations were one-off successes. If “many” means the classical “more than two”, then this is false. In the 800, Kiprugut had earned a bronze in ’64 and been world-ranked for four consecutive years. Keino (in the 1500 and 5000) had many successes that don’t need to be listed here. Temu (in the 5k and 10k) had already been ranked #1 and #2 in the world and defeated Clarke in the ’66 Commonwealth Games. Wolde (marathon and 10k) had been Bikila’s shadow for years, and would undoubtedly been a favorite regardless of venue. Only Biwott and Kogo could reasonably be called one-time successes (but Kogo was ranked #2 in 1967 and Biwott took 6th at the next OG).

[Guest]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

<I’m going to sum up my statements on this one last time and then do us all a favor by letting it rest.>

I for one, have picked up quite a few points from this continuing discussion. Both were great runners and each of us will have a (slightly) different opinion of how a race would have turned out elsewhere in 1968, or in say 1968 with no mono for Ryun.

My only request is - cool the rhetoric. No need for statements such as "Kenyan lover", or personal comments, please.

[gh]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

>I’m going to sum up my statements on this one
>last time and then do us all a favor by letting
>it rest.>>

Your arguments are all very interesting, but gloss over two basic truths.

1. Altitude doesn't affect everyone equally. Keino had an inherent advantage.

2. It was the "prevailing wisdom" at the time that altitude made it physically impossible to run as fast as Keino ended up doing. Ryun (and Tummler and all the rest) had no concept--and who could blame them--that a human, even an altitude-trained one, could do that. All those of who actually lived in those days remember that thinking well. They were all defeated before they even stepped to the line.

Put the race at sea-level and Ryun wins. As he always had in clashes with Keino to that point.

Keino was an awesome-awesome-awesome talent that spread across an incredible part of the distance spectrum. But he wasn't in Ryun's class as a miler. To take one aberrant race as indication of declarative proof to the contrary makes no sense. Might as well declare all the Mexico aberrations (viz, Bob Beamon) as the greatest ever.

[Guest]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

<2. It was the "prevailing wisdom" at the time that altitude made it physically impossible to run as fast as Keino ended up doing. Ryun (and Tummler and all the rest) had no concept--and who could blame them--that a human, even an altitude-trained one, could do that. All those of who actually lived in those days remember that thinking well. They were all defeated before they even stepped to the line.>

What exactly do you mean "They were all defeated before they even stepped to the line"? I recall 1968 very clearly, and there was no consensus of opinion writing Ryun off. T&FN "experts" picked Ryun over Keino 4-2 (or was it 3-3 ?). Cordner and Bert Nelson had not written Ryun off. The two Europeans, Quercetani and Watman, picked Keino over Ryun (placed second). I do not recall any quotes attributed to Ryun (prior to the 1968 race), along these lines either.

[gh]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

My writing style too convoluted for you? I get that. My point is that given how the race played out (with the pace it had), and the mindset that that the non-Keino runners had as to what was an acceptable tempo, in retrospect the race was over before it began. Ryun and Tummler didn't know it yet, but to steal from an old joke, they discovered they had brought knives to a gunfight.

In retrospect, staging the FOT at Echo Summit may actually have contributed to Ryun's downfall, the psychological messages that were sent about the altitude countering the benefits of high-altitude acclimation.

Note that the FOT race went out in 67.8! Ryun must have about shat his pants when Jipcho went out in 56-flat in Mexico. The FOT race was run in 3:49.0.

[Guest]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

<My writing style too convoluted for you? I get that. My point is that given how the race played out (with the pace it had), and the mindset that that the non-Keino runners had as to what was an acceptable tempo, in retrospect the race was over before it began. Ryun and Tummler didn't know it yet, but to steal from an old joke, they discovered they had brought knives to a gunfight.
In retrospect, staging the FOT at Echo Summit may actually have contributed to Ryun's downfall, the psychological messages that were sent about the altitude countering the benefits of high-altitude acclimation.
Note that the FOT race went out in 67.8! Ryun must have about shat his pants when Jipcho went out in 56-flat in Mexico. The FOT race was run in 3:49.0.>

One last try at this contentious issue. I don't know whether your writing style is too convoluted or not - but consider the following "facts".
(1) Ryun was awesome in 1967. Keino learned from his two defeats in Los Angeles and London. As any sane person would, he understood that a fast pace from the beginning was the only way to possibly beat Ryun. And he fully applied this tactic in Mexico City.
(2) Ryun was nowhere near his 1967 form in 1968. Altitude was known to be a problem for middle-long distance runners from 1955 onwards. Everyone had sufficient warning of this. Keino (and others) had the "good fortune" to have been born and trained at altitude. Ryun's only good run in 1968 (except for the Oly Final) was a 3:55.9 y at Walnut (CA). Keino ran a 3:40m or so time trial at high altitude and a fast time (3:55.5y) at Kisumu (altitude about 3700 feet). Did Ryun (and Tummler and others) take this into account? These runs suggested that unless the Oly Final degenerated into a tactical affair, a winning time of at least 3:37-3:38 was on the cards. If Ryun and Tummler "brought a knife to a gun fight" (as GH suggests), they were singularly unprepared for what appeared to be obvious to Keino - a fast paced final, and not a saunter in the park, followed by a frantic dash over the last 300-400 m.
(3) It is scarcely adequate preparation for Mexico City and Keino to run the first two laps in 67.8 and 65.8 and finish in 3:49.0m at the Oly Trials. Had Ryun tested himself at altitude off a reasonably fast pace (say 60 and 58 sec. for the first two laps), as was very likely against Keino?
(4) Jipcho's pacing Keino. I have not seen the race on film since 1968. What was Keino's time at 400 m and when did he take the lead? I presume he led for the last 1000m or so. His last 800m in 1:54.9 in the Oly final is not shabby running at any altitude of a reasonable pace.

A 1967 style Ryun, with proper altitude training, could almost certainly have won the Oly race. However, in 1968, Ryun was nowhere near his 1967 form - see his record of times for 1968, less credible than Tummler's. What caused Ryun's loss of form from 1967 to 1968. Injuries and mono? Most certainly these contributed in a large measure. In the Oly final, most people did not expect Keino to set a fast pace from the beginning and thought the winner would run 3:40, or at best 3:38. Given Keino's defeats at Ryun's hands in 1967, his earlier timings at altitude in 1968, this was wishful thinking.
Keino's 3:34.9 run, after running some 8.8 km of the 10 K race, heat and finals of the 5 K, heat and semis of the 1500 m in the preceeding seven days in Mexico City, remains an awesome achievement.

[Alan Sigmon]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

In Ryun's book "Quest for Gold," Ryun pretty much verifies Garry's comment about the mindset of the non-altitude milers at Mexico City.

But it wasn't his experiences at the FOT at Echo Summit that did Ryun in. Rather it was his meeting with Jack Daniels and a subsequent visit to Alamosa, Colorado in 1967,

In the book, Ryun tells that after the 1967 NCAA Indoor meet, steeplechaser Conrad Nightingale took him to see Daniels, who was then working on his doctorate (which was about the effects of altitude on athletic performance).

The book quotes Daniels (speaking to Ryun in that meeting) as follows: "Even if you show up [at Mexico City] in the condition of your life, I doubt you'll do better than four-minute pace. I wouldn't be surprised if 3:38 won it."

Ryun then describes his visit to Alamosa, Colorado, made at Daniels' invitation, during which he ran a one-mile trial. Ryun, who had run 3:53 a few days earlier, struggled to run 4:32. This made him a believer in what Daniels was saying. "I needed no further persuasion," wrote Ryun.

There is also a vivid description of a seven-mile training run that Ryun described as "unlike anything I'd ever experienced" for its sheer pain and torture.

"After a few weeks at Alamosa in 1967, I was genuinely apprehensive as I anticipated Mexico. There would be no opportunities to do extended altitude work during the school year. Therefore I saw my only choice in preparing for Mexico to be to work that much harder," Ryun said.

Ryun then procedes to describe his training over the winter of 1967-68: "I continued to train twice a day, but with greatly increased intensity. Where before I would have rested perhaps every other day with a light ten-mile run, now I pushed myself to the maximum limit every day....it was these very workouts--designed to make me stronger--that ultimately broke me down." Shortly thereafter came the mononucleosis.

In the chapter about the '68 Olympics, Ryun wrote,"For over a year Jack [Daniels] had drilled into me, 'Don't run too fast too soon. A sub-60 quarter is normal at sea level. But at altitude, a 58 or 59 quarter will put you into such serious oxygen debt that you'll never recover....There's only one chance you have, Jim ... Run slow enough not to get into the sort of problems [Ron] Clarke had."

Daniels had Ryun convinced that he couldn't or shouldn't run a fast pace at Mexico City ... and that the race would be won in a slow time. "I'd felt all along that a 3:40 would win the 1500 at Mexico," wrote Ryun.

But more importantly, Ryun's fears about altitude caused him to overtrain in an attempt to overcome its effects, which led to his mononucleosis--and that is, I think, what really led to Ryun's defeat.

It's my opinion that a fully-fit Ryun could have defeated Keino even at altitude, and even going out slowly. Ryun vintage '67 could have spotted Keino the 3.2 second gap the Kenyan had at 800m (1:55.3, to 1:58.5) and made it up in the remaining 700m. (Remember, Ryun closed the gap to about 1.9 seconds before easing off at the end when he knew it was hopeless.)

And had he been fully fit, Ryun probably wouldn't have let Keino get that big a gap in the first two laps, even if he were wary of the altitude.

It would have been a fascinating race.

[Guest]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

This thread has gone on and on...but I keep reading it because there is some great, insightful analysis that is fascinating. I appreciate all that esp. A. East, j Squire, gh and A. Sigmon have offered. This last post by Alan Sigmon I believe is the most convincing re: why Keino was able to defeat a far superior 1500m/mile talent (Ryun). Two conclusions: 1.Jim Ryun, in top form ,would have defeated Keino altitude or no and 2. in the real world Kip Keino pulled off a remarkable, courageous, convincing victory--for which he deserves the gold medal.

[tandfman]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

Just for the record, I agree with Alan's conclusion that it was Ryun's mononucleosis that resulted in his defeat by Keino. In fact, I said exactly that long ago in this thread (May 1).

[Vince]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

To all the posters on this thread that want to weigh in on the effects of altitude.......please go run a 5k above 7000 ft. Then come back and tell us about your experience......I'm betting your mindset may change a bit.

[Powell]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

I agree. People don't realize what it means to run 3:34.9 at 7000 ft. Yes, altitude may affect the Kenyans a bit differently, but it does affect them all the same. Even of the current crop of Kenyans (which includes 3:26 guys), noone has run that much faster at altitude in Kenya than Keino did in Mexico. Even in his WR form, Ryun stood no chance in that race - he would have needed to be in 3:30 shape to be a threat to Keino.

[Guest]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

> Even of the current crop of Kenyans (which includes 3:26 guys), noone has run that much faster at altitude in Kenya than Keino did in Mexico.>>

Well of course they haven't! Let me know next time a Kenyan runs an Olympic final at altitude with a built-in 56-second rabbit and I'll buy the comparison.

[gh]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

>>But more importantly, Ryun's fears about altitude caused him to overtrain in an attempt to overcome its
effects, which led to his mononucleosis--and that is, I think, what really led to Ryun's defeat.>>

I hate to take issue with a post that went to great lengths basically to back up my side of this argument, but I do worry about this last statement. Unless they've changed the rules since that drinking fountain :-) gave me mono in high school, it comes from a virus, not from "overtraining." Same way you get a cold, not from "going out in the cold." Unless they've changed the whole etiology of the thing in recent years.

[Guest]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

gh--you can drink off a lot of drinking fountains that carry a "cold virus" and not get sick IF YOUR NATURAL RESISTANCE IS HIGH. Ryun over stressed himself and that is why he was susceptable to and actually contracted the Mono.

[gh]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

Please explain the physical process by which an "overstressed body" has less "natural resistance." In fact, please start by defining those in scientific terms, so we don't wander down the hallways of folk medicine.