Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

[mezr]

Okay, this is an old post, but WOW, What a great topic! Okay, here's my take on the non-field events ...

When comparing athletes of different generations, I think that it's important to somewhat level the playing field. In other words, we have to look at their existing performance records (times, distance and heigths) as well as wins. We have to assume that all of them would have access to equipment, types of tracks, and the scientific knowledge that we have today about training (general training, nutrition, computerized motion study, etc.). We also have to consider that there was once much more of an amature status involved in this sport. As a result, many athletes were not able to concentrate so completely on it as they now have the ability to do. Lastly, we need to look at what they could do when they were healthly.

Taking all of this into consideration, my thoughts are as follows ...

100m - Bob Hayes (Just think of what he might have accomplished had he stayed with the sport!)

200 - hard to say, but wouldn't we love to see a race between Michael Johnson and Tommie Smith?!

400 - Michael Johnson (I never felt that he was pushed to reach his capacity)

800 - Snell (Bottom line is that he would not allow someone to beat him ... period)

1500/Mile - Ryun (His downfall was not his talent or abilty to compete. It was just bad luck. But like I said, level the playing field, and I don't think that there has ever been somone with the talent, the record, the competetive spirit, or the desire that even comes close.)

The longer distances are so tactical, and I don't think that I'm equiped to address that right now. But I will say that Lasse Viren would have to rank in the 5000, and both he and Haile Gebrselassie in the 10000. As for the Marathon, who do you think could beat Abebe Bikila (with shoes on).

110 Hurdles - Nehemiah (Talent alone makes me pick him. Aside from his dominance in the hurdles at the time, shortly after setting the world record he ran a 19.4 split in the 4 x 200 relay and a 44.3 in the 4 x 400 relay at the Penn Relays. In top form, I don't think he could be touched.)

400 Hurdles - Moses (nothing else needs to be said here)

Relays are another difficult one. But just imagine if almost any Texas high school 4 x 100 relay team stayed together for four years AFTER high shcool. Have you ever looked at the times they run in that state! :-)

[bf]

Re: Common colds

That jump would've gotten Jesse to Sydney and Athens. (65 and 69 years later.) Mind-boggling. Just goes to prove, though, that the LJ is the only event that hasn't gone through the changes that all other events have. (Except doping. But even there, the effect may be the least.)

[mrbowie]

Re: Common colds

Jesse Owens long jump.

His world record of 26'8 1'4" lasted seemingly forever and is still long enough to win some meets.

I think his world record was the greatest single record of the last century.

[DrJay]

Common colds

>>>But more importantly, Ryun's fears about altitude caused him to overtrain in
>an attempt to overcome its
effects, which led to his mononucleosis--and that
>is, I think, what really led to Ryun's defeat.>>

I hate to take issue with a
>post that went to great lengths basically to back up my side of this argument,
>but I do worry about this last statement. Unless they've changed the rules
>since that drinking fountain :-) gave me mono in high school, it comes from a
>virus, not from "overtraining." Same way you get a cold, not from "going out
>in the cold." Unless they've changed the whole etiology of the thing in recent
>years.

This thread reared its head for unclear reasons, but I skimmed a few posts about mono and viruses and immunity and all and had to add this little story in reponse to gh's well-founded skepticism. An infectious disease doc I knew, during some training (medical) in Scotland, did this small study. They took a bunch (n= a bunch) of people and gave them all nosedrops containing a common cold virus. In half (a bunch/2), that's all they did. The other half got to stand outside lightly clothed in the cold Scottish winter air for three hours while the investigators hosed them down with water. The endpoint of the study was simple--how many in each group got sick with a viral upper respiratory infection. There was no difference between the soakees and the non-soakees in the rate of infection so gh is right.

[paulthefan]

Re: Track History

was Mennea actually from Bari (very rural town in southeast italy)....

[Paolo]

Re: Track History

I agree about steroids, no controls until '70.
but for me the best 200 m. sprinters has been PIETRO MENNEA da Barletta(Bari)!!!!

[dj]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

"Yeah, driving 73 miles on a straight line through the cornfields is a real ball-buster."

Too bad he didn't have Billy Mullins driving for him. Mullins could have made the trip in 10 minutes each way!

[Alan Sigmon]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

>I took special notice of the Ryun quote where he
>says there won't be any opportunities for
>extended training at altitude during the school
>year. How's that for priorities? Times sure
>have changed, haven't they?

Have they ever! When Ryun, who was the world record holder for 880y, 1500m, and the mile visited Alamosa in the summer of '67 for several weeks of training at altitude, he said he did it "paying my way by bagging groceries for a local supermarket."

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

>I should also add that it wasn't only Ryun's
>increased training load that was a factor in
>contracting the disease, but also lack of rest.
>He was at that time frequently driving back and
>forth from Kansas to Kansas State to see his
>girlfriend, often not getting adequate sleep.>

Yeah, driving 73 miles on a straight line through the cornfields is a real ball-buster. No, wait, I've got it! He went Kenyan that year, realizing that was the only way to beat Keino, and he was RUNNING BAREFOOT between the two schools on a daily basis!

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

>(At the end of this post are citations from three web sites which refer to stress, fatigue, and/or overwork as risk factors for mononucleosis.)>

For another citation referring to the relationship between certain stress factors and the susceptibility of some individuals to viral infections, see Adelaide's Lament (Loesser, 1950).
http://members.tripod.com/Point202/Guys ... ament.html

[pickle47]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

Alan, your last couple of posts were good. I took special notice of the Ryun quote where he says there won't be any opportunities for extended training at altitude during the school year. How's that for priorities? Times sure have changed, haven't they?

[Alan Sigmon]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

I wrote: But more importantly, Ryun's fears about
>altitude caused him to overtrain in an attempt to
>overcome its
effects, which led to his
>mononucleosis--and that is, I think, what really
>led to Ryun's defeat.>>

Garry replied: I hate to take issue
>with a post that went to great lengths basically
>to back up my side of this argument, but I do
>worry about this last statement. Unless they've
>changed the rules since that drinking fountain
>:-) gave me mono in high school, it comes from a
>virus, not from "overtraining." Same way you
>get a cold, not from "going out in the cold."
>Unless they've changed the whole etiology of the
>thing in recent years.

- - - -
Garry is of course correct that mononucleosis is caused by a virus, not over training. I should have worded that sentence so that it was clear that I meant that Ryun's heavier training load made him more susceptible to contracting the disease.

(At the end of this post are citations from three web sites which refer to stress, fatigue, and/or overwork as risk factors for mononucleosis.)

I should also add that it wasn't only Ryun's increased training load that was a factor in contracting the disease, but also lack of rest. He was at that time frequently driving back and forth from Kansas to Kansas State to see his girlfriend, often not getting adequate sleep.

Interestingly, two of the web sites below also list being a college student as a risk factor.


http://www.augie.edu/student_serv/wellness/mono.html

Risk Increases With
¡P Stress
¡P Illness that has lowered resistance
¡P Fatigue or overwork.
¡P High School or college student
o The high incidence among college students and military recruits may result from inadequate rest and crowded living conditions
http://www.mdadvice.com/library/sport/sport43.html
„h CAUSES & RISK FACTORS
A contagious virus (Epstein-Barr virus) that is transmitted from person to person by close contact, such as kissing, shared food or coughing. The following factors increase the risk of getting mononucleosis:
„h Stress.
„h Illness that has lowered resistance.
„h Fatigue or overwork. The high incidence among college students, athletes and military recruits may result from inadequate rest and crowded living conditions.

http://www.medicalonline.com.au/medical ... nonucl.htm

An attack may be associated with a lowered resistance to infection through a general state of debility due to stress,

[pickle47]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

Oh, goody! Let's go down the road of folk medicine as it applies to running and see where that takes us!

[gh]

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

Please explain the physical process by which an "overstressed body" has less "natural resistance." In fact, please start by defining those in scientific terms, so we don't wander down the hallways of folk medicine.

Re: Ryun vs. Keino (was Track History)

gh--you can drink off a lot of drinking fountains that carry a "cold virus" and not get sick IF YOUR NATURAL RESISTANCE IS HIGH. Ryun over stressed himself and that is why he was susceptable to and actually contracted the Mono.