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1988 Olympics Womens 4x4

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Pierre-Jean
    You are completely crazy with your maths.

    Using a unreal 0.50 performer at 100m to destroy the practical model used by the relay coaches is crazy. The 3sec is designed for sprinters, not a 0.50sec bolid or 20sec snail.
    no

    that is called logic

    if you propose a relationship as simple as subtract 3, you are going to get laughed off here

    it's insulting to the intelligence to use such a simple relationship & as shown above, it is not valid for all cases & therefore not viable

    Comment


    • #62
      It's logic in our maths world.
      We don't care if the 3sec can be applied in any case, with car, dragster, frogs or vegetables, we just care if it can be applied with sprinters (i mean human beeings who run 10-11sec). And it is indeed the case. Saying if we get a 0.50 sprinter, the 3sec difference is false, this is laughable. This is my last reply because i refuse to talk about sprinters who can run 100m under 9 seconds :lol:

      Comment


      • #63
        no

        it is not logical that an elite men's squad cover the total 60m relay zones at the same speed as an elite women's squad & if the latter has a 3.00s saving for the relay zone, it is not possible for the men to have the same 3.00 saving

        under ideal circumstances, every instant during the relay zone, the men will be travelling at a faster speed than the women:

        they will enter the zone at ~ 0.90s/10m speed ( women at ~ 1.00s/10m speed ) - hence upto the point where "extra" deceleration at handover arrives, the men will have covered the initial part of the relay zone faster

        both will now face the "extra" deceleration to hand over, which then leaves us with 3 possibilities at handover:

        1) men decelerate so much that at baton handover they are travelling slower than the women

        2) men decelerate to an extent, that they have the exact same baton handover speed as the women

        3) men decelerate to a comparable extent as the women, but because of their initial higher entry speed, the baton handover speed will be higher than the women

        looking at the possibilities:

        1) is nonsense & not even worth bothering with

        2) is nonsense - there is a law of the universe which states that the speed of light is constant, but there is no law of the universe that states that regardless of speeds of different calibre of runners, that the baton handover speed is fixed for all time

        leaving us with 3) as the answer

        then we come to the flying start of the outgoing runners:

        1) men have slower flying ~ 10m then women

        2) men have the same exact flying ~ 10m as women

        3) men have faster flying ~ 10m than women

        1) & 2) are nonsense, leaving us with 3

        therefore, in all aspects of the relay zone, the men are travelling at a faster speed than the women & if the latter save 3.00s during the relay zones, it is not possible for the men to have the same saving & is likely to be mid-high 2s if we use 3.00s for women

        Comment


        • #64
          lets see how mathematically we derive a relationship for a simple set of data as relay time & sb of one of the 4 "identical" runners in the squad under ideal circumstances:

          - initially, we have 2 sets of data: ( 10.00, 37 low-high ) & ( 11.00, 41 low-high )

          the first port of call is to use the most basic polynomial equation, i.e.

          y = a + bx, where in this case, y = relay time, x = sb & a & b are the constants relating them

          this is in fact where

          relay time = -3.00 + 4(sb)

          comes from, where a = -3.00 & b = 4

          now this is nonsense as in certain cases a +ve value of x will give a -ve value for y, so we disregard this as viable

          next, we can try a slight manipulation of the basic polynomial y = a + bx & make a = 0 ( in order to get rid of nonsense -ve results ) & b = a ratio factor, which in this case, i suggested 0.94 x 4 = 3.76, so we get:

          y = 3.76x

          which is better & gives more reliable results

          however, this is still very basic & not really rigorous enough

          so, next you add a further data point to ( 10.00, 37 low-high ) & ( 11.00, 41 low-high ), namely ( 0, 0 ), which allows us to permanently exclude nonsense -ve results & the polynomial you use is

          y = a + bx + (c)x^2

          where c is another constant

          more accuracy required & add further data points (add the term for french wr team, which is probably the fastest ever achieved by a bunch of 10.1+ guyz ) & further powers of polynomial :

          ( 10.00, 37 low-high ) ,( 11.00, 41 low-high ), ( 0, 0 ), ( 10.1+, 37.79 )

          & the polynomial is

          y = a + bx + (c)x^2 + (d)x^3

          & for our purposes, add 1 more data point, say, time of an elite women's squad of 11.10 runners - maybe they go 41 high:

          ( 10.00, 37 low-high ) ,( 11.00, 41 low-high ), ( 0, 0 ), ( 10.1+, 37.79 ), (11.10, 41 high )

          with equation:

          y = a + bx + (c)x^2 + (d)x^3 + (e)x^4

          this is about as far as i think you need to go ( you can go ad infinitum , but 5 solid data points with a decent polynomial shoud suffice for our purposes )

          plug those data points into any mathematical software & it will spew out your polynomial equation, solved for a,b,c,d & e & which you can then apply, with confidence to any sbs you care to name & an accurate predicted relay time from that

          ( if someone gives me acceptable figures for the data points, i'll plug it in )

          this is how you do it mathematically & so i don't expect to hear anymore bullshit about "multiply by 4 & subtract 3 !!! " :evil:

          Comment


          • #65
            Actually, the exchange zone is 30m (10m international zone followed by the 20m exchange zone). Most international runners start out at the top of the international zone which would give the outgoing runner 30 possible meters of acceleration which would put them closer to 3.0 sec of difference from actual time to flying times. All of the data shows that there generally is a difference between acceleration and flying times for 30m of elite sprinters of 1.0. multiply that by 3 exchanges and you get 3.0 sec possible differential.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by high knees
              Actually, the exchange zone is 30m (10m international zone followed by the 20m exchange zone). Most international runners start out at the top of the international zone which would give the outgoing runner 30 possible meters of acceleration which would put them closer to 3.0 sec of difference from actual time to flying times. All of the data shows that there generally is a difference between acceleration and flying times for 30m of elite sprinters of 1.0. multiply that by 3 exchanges and you get 3.0 sec possible differential.
              Don't forget that two of the athletes are running around a curve, which would slow them down a bit. General point - hasn't this thread got incredibly technical?

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by high knees
                All of the data shows that there generally is a difference between acceleration and flying times for 30m of elite sprinters of 1.0. multiply that by 3 exchanges and you get 3.0 sec possible differential.
                i had a look at some data:

                http://myweb.lmu.edu/jmureika/track/spl ... .html#99wc

                it generally shows men have a difference of ~ 0.85s for flying 30m, compared to 30m from the blocks ( no RT ):

                1) flying 30m time = time at 40m - time at 10m

                2) 30m time from block = time at 30m - RT

                subtract the 2 &

                ~ 0.85s seems to be a general answer

                i haven't seen too many split figures for women, but i found these figures for the '88 100w og:

                flo-jo
                RT 0.131, 2.00, 3.09, 4.09, 5.04, 5.97, 6.89, 7.80, 8.71, 9.62, 10.54
                2.00 + 1.09 + 1.00 + 0.95 + 0.93 + 0.92 + 0.91 + 0.91 + 0.91 + 0.92

                ashford
                RT 0.176, 2.02, 3.13, 4.15, 5.11, 6.07, 7.01, 7.96, 8.91, 9.87, 10.83
                2.02 + 1.11 + 1.02 + 0.96 + 0.96 + 0.94 + 0.95 + 0.95 + 0.96 + 0.96

                drechsler
                RT 0.143, 2.01, 3.12, 4.14, 5.11, 6.08, 7.02, 7.97, 8.92, 9.88, 10.85
                2.01 + 1.11 + 1.02 + 0.97 + 0.97 + 0.94 +0.95 + 0.95 + 0.96 + 0.97

                which tends to suggest women's differential is ~ 0.90s

                we obviously need a lot of women's data to analyse, but logic dictates again a % difference based on speed, rather than a simple 1.00s difference:

                e.g.

                - a steroid pumped superman in 50y has a 30m from block of 3.00 & with a 1s difference to his flying 30m, his flying 30m is 2.00s

                - a cheetah has 30m from blocks of 2.00s & therefore an implied flying 30m of 1.00s

                - a steroid pumped cheetah has a 30m from the blocks of 1.00s & has a flying 30m of ... :shock:

                Comment


                • #68
                  Eldrick, the math doesn't work when you are adding and subtracting apples from oranges. The FLYING 30M is the 30m AFTER the 30m acceleration phase, eg. 30-60m. Using your examples (for the females), Flo-Jo (minus reaction time) had a 30m acceleration time of 4.09. Her next 30m (post acceleration, thus flying) were covered in 2.80 seconds. The differential here is 1.29. For Ashford, the first 30m were covered in 4.15 sec and the subsequent 30m in 2.86 sec for a differential of 1.29 sec. For Dreschler, her first 30m were covered in 4.14 sec and the subsequent flying 30m in 2.88 sec for a differential of 1.26 sec. If you look at the data, you can see for all 3 ladies, the 4th 10m segment (the 40m segment) is much faster than the previous three, and begins a trend of faster 10m segments. This is why 30m is pretty much universally deemed the acceleration phase for elite athletes. Athletes who are sub elite usually hit their maximum velocity phases much sooner. Also, you can see that both Ashford and Dreschler hit their max velocity phases from 50-60m then began to decelerate while Flo hit hers consistantly from 70-90m with just a slight fall off from 90-100m. Usually this indicates something "unusual" as most sprinters are going into a fatigue state here where stride length begins to dominate over stride frequency and the 10m segments begin to slow as you saw with Ashford and Dreschler.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Now for the men in your example.....using the data correctly, we get this:

                    Green 30m Acc=3.67, 30 Fly =2.58, diff=1.09

                    Chambers 30m Acc=3.66, 30 Fly=2.60, diff=1.07

                    Surin 30m Acc=3.67, 30 Fly=2.64, diff=1.04

                    Thompson 30m Acc=3.71, 30m Fly=2.65, diff=1.06

                    Harden 30m Acc=3.67, 30m Fly=2.66, diff = 1.01

                    Avg. differential for just those 5=1.054 sec

                    pretty close to 1.0 eh?

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      So back on topic, that of relays, usually most relay teams try to get the stick close to the end of the zone, so that they can negatethe acceleration phase and pass the stick off at near top speed (close to 30m); this is why the near 1.0 differential between block times per individual and flying times per individual are significant when looking at the efficiency of a relay team.

                      Comment

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