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  • Great Britain & N.I. Terminology Question

    Why does the WA use this terminology for its designation under countries?

    My understanding is that Great Britain & N.I. is a geographical reference to an Island along with Northern Ireland. England, Scotland, Wales and NI are legal distinctions from the geographical. The former are countries, except sometimes NI is not referred to as a country, even though it is allowed by the Olympic Council of Ireland to compete separately as one - NI.

    Supposedly, it is not correct to use the term Great Britain to refer to the whole United Kingdom which includes NI. Great Britain is thus just England, Scotland, and Wales. Historically Great Britain was the Kingdom of Great Britain which was the Kingdom of England (England and Wales) + Scotland.

    The term United Kingdom is used to refer to a Country (England, Wales, Scotland, and NI) collectively. Thus the use of United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland or United Kingdom or Britain. As a result of this historical maze why not just use United Kingdom or Britain? Even though the term Britain might be a little much for those born not in England - British not Scottish, Welsh or Irish. And instead of GBR they can use UKG or UKI, etc.

    Better yet why not jut use separate designations - England, Wales, Scotland, N. Ireland, and Ireland. Can athletes from England, Wales, and Scotland compete under these countries if they wanted too?

    And what of athletes from the Isle of Man, etc.

    Musing over this Euler Diagram.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Termin..._British_Isles

  • #2
    World Athletics recognizes UK Athletics as its member Federation, and it is listed as Great Britain & NI with the 3-letter initials GBR. The Commonwealth Games include separate teams for England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales, Ireland, Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man. All of these other than Ireland are politically within the United Kingdom, or GBR.

    Comment


    • #3
      When people say Britain or UK they mean all four home countries.

      Until 1988 each home country had a team in the WCCC.

      Comment


      • #4
        An earlier discussion on this issue is here: https://forum.trackandfieldnews.com/...he-same-nation

        You might be pleased to know that the country code was once GBI for (UK of) GB & (Northern) Ireland, but only at the 1964 Olympics.

        There is an international standard for names - ISO 3166 that has both numerical and alpha codes to enable accurate exchange of electronic data. The IOC alpha codes are based on this with some minor variations. The IAAF used codes for some nations that were different to the IOC but decided back in 2000 to harmonise with the IOC and to use ISO convention for any new member countries.

        So, GBR it is for The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland.

        I would note that encapsulating the full name of 200+ entities into a 3 letter code is not always going to include all elements of the full name.

        For example, The Hong Kong Special Administrative Region of China is generally known as Hong Kong, thus its code of HKG with no mention of the China bit. This alpha code doesn't look like it will last long and will be subsumed into CHN. The status of TPE will probably last a bit longer.

        Then you have the two Congos, neither of which has the "N" that you would expect - The Democratic Republic of the Congo (COD) and The Republic of the Congo (COG).

        Comment


        • #5
          Great Britain on its own is not strictly correct as a country name because it is the name of the island that includes the mainland parts of England, Wales and Scotland. Therefore it doesn't include Northern Ireland and various other islands such as the Scottish ones, Anglesey that is part of Wales and Isle of Wight which is in England.

          The Isle of Man and the Channel Islands (Jersey, Guernsey and some smaller islands) are an interesting case. They are not actually part of the UK, as they are not represented in Parliament and they have their own laws (notably on taxation as some wealthy people live there as tax exiles), but for the vast majority of sports their residents will compete for the UK/GB&NI as their islands are not affiliated separately. This includes the Isle of Man cyclist Mark Cavendish who won the World Championships as a member of the GB team and a couple of soccer players from the Channel Islands who played for England in the 1990s and 2000s.

          One of the complications is there is no such nationality as 'UKish', the nationality is British. Although of course there is English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish as well. In a way this is similar to the USA, where there is no such thing as 'USish' or 'USAish', and the nationality is American.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by El Toro View Post
            You might be pleased to know that the country code was once GBI for (UK of) GB & (Northern) Ireland, but only at the 1964 Olympics.
            Actually at the Olympics, Great Britain was given the 3-letter abbreviation GBI in 1956 at both Melbourne and Stockholm (equestrian Games), and 1964. And in 1952 it was listed as G-B. We have a listing of all the nations at the Olympics and their various abbreviations at each Games. Some of the nations, like the Netherlands, have had multiple abbreviations - NED, HOL, PBA, OLA, NET, NL. Also Czechoslovakia - TCH, CHE, CSL, CSV, CZE, CZS, T-S

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Trickstat View Post
              Great Britain on its own is not strictly correct as a country name because it is the name of the island that includes the mainland parts of England, Wales and Scotland. Therefore it doesn't include Northern Ireland and various other islands such as the Scottish ones, Anglesey that is part of Wales and Isle of Wight which is in England.

              The Isle of Man and the Channel Islands (Jersey, Guernsey and some smaller islands) are an interesting case. They are not actually part of the UK, as they are not represented in Parliament and they have their own laws (notably on taxation as some wealthy people live there as tax exiles), but for the vast majority of sports their residents will compete for the UK/GB&NI as their islands are not affiliated separately. This includes the Isle of Man cyclist Mark Cavendish who won the World Championships as a member of the GB team and a couple of soccer players from the Channel Islands who played for England in the 1990s and 2000s.

              One of the complications is there is no such nationality as 'UKish', the nationality is British. Although of course there is English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish as well. In a way this is similar to the USA, where there is no such thing as 'USish' or 'USAish', and the nationality is American.
              Yes Great Britain is not a country yet they have it on their jersey when competing. And if the Isle of Man is not part of the UK why does not the WA keep stats for those athletes? The whole thing seems to be a mess because of the historical conflicts. And as others have noted it get more complicated depending on the competition. I guess I wished the WA would keep stats for England, Wales, Scotland, NI, and Ireland separately as NR under their country section. Oh well more work for me to do!

              Comment


              • #8
                Just noticed that even Gibraltar gets it own spot under the country category. Oi vey! Yet I can't find one athlete or stat for that "country" on the WA site. Admittedly, I did a very quick search.
                Last edited by proofs in the pudd'in; 09-27-2020, 04:00 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Here is another dooosie. Norfolk Isand gets it own place on the list as well. Why I have no freaking idea.

                  At the 2016 Australian census, it had 1748 inhabitants living on a total area of about 35 km (14 sq mi).

                  Why is England at the center of all these places? Do they still own the world

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by proofs in the pudd'in View Post
                    Here is another dooosie. Norfolk Isand gets it own place on the list as well. Why I have no freaking idea.

                    At the 2016 Australian census, it had 1748 inhabitants living on a total area of about 35 km (14 sq mi).

                    Why is England at the center of all these places? Do they still own the world
                    If you read the purpose of the international standard, ISO 3166, it tells you that it defines codes for the names of countries, dependent territories, special areas of geographical interest, as well as their principal subdivisions such as provinces or states.

                    Norfolk Island is a dependent external territory of Australia, so this is why it is included in the ISO 3166 listing as a separate entity.

                    ISO listing does not mean that any particular international body will affiliate that entity.

                    So, in the Olympics, a Norfolk Islander represents Australia because the IOC only recognises Australia, but at WC and CWG, he/she represent Norfolk Island because it is directly affiliated with WA.

                    Norfolk Island has, until recently, been self governing and did not pay Australian tax or have entitlement to government payments such as pensions because it had its own immigration, taxation and social security regimes.

                    Norfolk Island's status is similar to, but not exactly the same, as Gibraltar (a British Overseas Territory) in relation to the UK of GB&NI.

                    You likely won't find any data for small entities on the WA site because the performances a so poor due to the very limited population. For example, NFI only usually sends one or two athletes to Oceania champs or Pacific Games and they are usually high school kids. The NFI national records here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_in_athletics

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by bambam1729 View Post

                      Actually at the Olympics, Great Britain was given the 3-letter abbreviation GBI in 1956 at both Melbourne and Stockholm (equestrian Games), and 1964. And in 1952 it was listed as G-B. We have a listing of all the nations at the Olympics and their various abbreviations at each Games. Some of the nations, like the Netherlands, have had multiple abbreviations - NED, HOL, PBA, OLA, NET, NL. Also Czechoslovakia - TCH, CHE, CSL, CSV, CZE, CZS, T-S
                      Wikipedia wilfully misled me, your Honour!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by El Toro View Post

                        So, in the Olympics, a Norfolk Islander represents Australia because the IOC only recognises Australia, but at WC and CWG, he/she represent Norfolk Island because it is directly affiliated with WA.
                        This is similar to British territories such as Anguilla and Turks & Caicos which are members of WA but not the IOC. However, because of British lottery funding and WA rules limiting transfers, athletes good enough to represent GB, such as the Anguillan long jumper Shara Proctor, tend to stay competing for them once they have transferred.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by El Toro View Post

                          If you read the purpose of the international standard, ISO 3166, it tells you that it defines codes for the names of countries, dependent territories, special areas of geographical interest, as well as their principal subdivisions such as provinces or states.

                          Norfolk Island is a dependent external territory of Australia, so this is why it is included in the ISO 3166 listing as a separate entity.

                          ISO listing does not mean that any particular international body will affiliate that entity.

                          So, in the Olympics, a Norfolk Islander represents Australia because the IOC only recognises Australia, but at WC and CWG, he/she represent Norfolk Island because it is directly affiliated with WA.

                          Norfolk Island has, until recently, been self governing and did not pay Australian tax or have entitlement to government payments such as pensions because it had its own immigration, taxation and social security regimes.

                          Norfolk Island's status is similar to, but not exactly the same, as Gibraltar (a British Overseas Territory) in relation to the UK of GB&NI.

                          You likely won't find any data for small entities on the WA site because the performances a so poor due to the very limited population. For example, NFI only usually sends one or two athletes to Oceania champs or Pacific Games and they are usually high school kids. The NFI national records here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_in_athletics
                          1.80 wHJ and 57.02 mHam are pretty good performances for a population of 1,748

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by El Toro View Post

                            Wikipedia wilfully misled me, your Honour!
                            No worries. It was not until the mid-1970s, and Montreal, that the IOC started formalizing the 3LA for NOCs. Prior to that time they were chosen by the OCOGs for each Games, so it was often done in the language of the host nation - example is OLA for Netherlands, which is Italian in 1960

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The 3 letter abbreviation that used to bemuse was AHO for the now defunct Netherlands Antilles. Then one day I realised it was Antilles HOllandaise and it made sense. I must admit Antilles Hollandaise does sound to me like something you might eat for lunch!

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