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Comparison of mLJ versus mSP world records

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  • Comparison of mLJ versus mSP world records

    In the trials thread, I took exception to Crouser’s wonderful WR being called Beamonesque. For the sake of this discussion, let’s assume that Beamon’s mark is legitimate. ( we can discuss Mexico City altitude and wind elsewhere). It is also fair that he is very unlikely to increase it by a CM repeatedly since throws don’t work like vertical jumps.

    Here is the progression of the men’s LJ world record. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27...rd_progression
    Before Beamon, no one came remotely close to either a 6.5% or 55CM improvement.

    Here is the SP progression. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27...rd_progression
    improvements of 25CM are not uncommon. Parry O’Brien was transformative in adding over 1.25 meters to the WR through several incremental efforts. In 1988, Ulf Timmerman added 40CM to the record. Crouser’s effort yesterday was a little more than a 1% improvement.

    I fully expect that yesterday was not Crouser’s last word. I doubt he will leave us with a world record of 24.38(equivalent to O’Brien’s efforts).

  • #2
    Not to denigrate Crouser's performance yesterday and without the incremental percentages, I think Beamon's jump remains the definition of "Beamonesque". Nobody saw it coming, he never came close afterwards and it took 23 years to match it. Crouser was just a matter of when.
    I don't understand the O'Brien equivalency.
    Last edited by lonewolf; 06-19-2021, 08:29 PM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by lonewolf View Post
      Not to denigrate Crouser's performance yesterday and without the incremental percentages, I think Beamon's jump remains the definition of "Beamonesque". Nobody saw it coming, he never came close afterwards and it took 23 years to match it. Crouser was just a matter of when.
      I don't understand the O'Brien equivalency.
      there was no intended equivalency between O’Brien and Beamon.

      I brought up O’Brien to point out that the SP has had a history of transformative performers and separately, that a 25CM improvement is not out of the ordinary in the SP. At the same time, there is no history of a 55CM improvement or even close to that in the LJ.
      Last edited by Dave; 06-20-2021, 03:17 AM.

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      • #4
        Beamonesque for Crouser would have been a 1.42m improvement to 24.54.

        23.12 / 8.95 x 55cm = 24.54m

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Tuariki View Post
          Beamonesque for Crouser would have been a 1.42m improvement to 24.54.

          23.12 / 8.95 x 55cm = 24.54m
          Huh?

          wouldn’t it be something like

          8.90=Beamon’s mark.
          8.34=Boston’s mark that was beaten by Beamon
          23.12=Previous SP world record.

          (1 + (( 8.90 - 8.34 ) / 8.34 ) ) * 23.12 = 24.647?

          not a huge difference, I admit.

          No matter what Crouser does from this point on, he will have had a splendid career. He has a long ways to go to match O’Brien. It is impossible for him to match Beamon’s achievement.

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          • #6
            I think Beamon's WR should be adjusted for altitude and then used for comparison purposes.
            The altitude at Mexico City had a big effect on the sprints and jumps.
            There is no such weather or geography advantage for a shot putter.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Jacksf View Post
              ....
              There is no such weather or geography advantage for a shot putter.
              there were actually some calculations by math PhD Don Potts in the magazine in the '50s, theorizing that the shot would be affected by differential gravity betweenn the equator and higher latitudes. I don't remember which way was the (miniscule) advantage though.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by gh View Post

                there were actually some calculations by math PhD Don Potts in the magazine in the '50s, theorizing that the shot would be affected by differential gravity betweenn the equator and higher latitudes. I don't remember which way was the (miniscule) advantage though.
                The earth is not a true sphere, so some locations on earth are at different distances from the centre of mass, so different strength of gravity.

                https://earthhow.com/shape-of-the-earth/

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                • #9
                  It is difficult to compare two fundamentally different events - LJ is a primitive event where humans were much closer to maximal performance a long time ago and SP has constantly developed a much more complex technical model and performance is much more trainable through strength development. Both events are now close to upper bounds of performance - ~9m and <23.50m.

                  Calculations based on simple proportionate increases are useless when you have two such disparate events and performances at different stages of event development. A different, but not perfect, way to consider improvements is to consider the ratio of distances between two events.

                  In the chart below you can easily see long periods of relative stagnation early in the centry (due to similar improvement in both) and the last 40 years (hardly any change in performance).

                  The dramatic increase in ratio (higher ratio equals relatively better SP) in the post WWII period ends with Randy Matson's 21.78m in 1967 generating a [edit to correct data - thanks to Dave] 2.608 ratio because the LJ record was a modest 8.35m in that year. The reality is that LJ performances were stagnant for a very long time, improved slightly and Beamon just caught up in one go under extremely advantageous conditions.

                  Then a SPer named named Brian Oldfield advanced the technical base significantly to wipe out much of Beamon's gains by pushing SP close to maximal performance levels. As you can see, apart from minor changes (late 80s SP, [edit to correct year] 1991 LJ) the ratio has barely changed since 1975, until...Crouser.

                  This thrower has taken the technical revolution of Oldfield, disposed of the wild man inconsistency and quite simply pushed the technical model to it's highest level ever. He has also pushed the SP ratio to the highest it has ever been at 2.611.

                  There is no longer a chance for a current thrower to make a massive once off improvement because the event is mature as is the LJ where nobody can be expected to jump the 9.55cm necessary to bring the ratio down to where Beamon got it.



                  WRratio-MSPtoMLJ.JPG

                  The changes in ratio produced by some of the key athletes mentioned in this thread.
                  Athlete From To Change WRs
                  O'Brien 2.208 2.374 0.166 10
                  Matson 2.480 2.608 0.128 3
                  Beamon 2.608 2.447 -0.161 1
                  Oldfield 2.452 2.569 0.117 1


                  Last edited by El Toro; 06-23-2021, 05:47 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Excellent analysis. Thanks.

                    Id think these are two of the most mature events in Track and Field. Obviously, the LJ benefited from better shoes, runways. The shot put did benefit from better strength training, video, and an apparently better technical model. Since the LJ record has not moved since 1991, it isn’t clear how much advantage video has provided.

                    I suspect the ratio will rise a bit more since I don’t believe Crouser has reached his limit. Likewise, I don’t see any LJer doing much with the WR. Though WRs are incredibly solid until someone comes along and surprises us.

                    Thanks for pointing out Brian Oldfield, his 1m+ improvement was close to Beamonesque. I also noticed Dallas Long advanced the WR by nearly as O’Brien.

                    I think you meant 2.608, not 3.608 for Matson.
                    Last edited by Dave; 06-23-2021, 05:28 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Dave View Post
                      I think you meant 2.608, not 3.608 for Matson.
                      Thanks! I've fixed the post above and also a typo of the year of the LJ WR - I had 1994, now 1991.

                      Another stat that might be interesting regarding the relative standard of events prior to 1968, is the number of athletes to surpass the 1967 WR:
                      • 48 athletes have exceeded Randy Matson's 21.78
                      • 87 athletes have exceeded Ralph Boston's/Igor Ter-O's 8.35

                      I don't think Matson gets enough credit. In my mind, he's the only old school glider that could throw 23 in today's environment, even though he'd probably spin nowadays.



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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by gh View Post

                        there were actually some calculations by math PhD Don Potts in the magazine in the '50s, theorizing that the shot would be affected by differential gravity betweenn the equator and higher latitudes. I don't remember which way was the (miniscule) advantage though.
                        A throw from the moon would probably remain as a Crouserest step for humanity... 😳💡

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by gh View Post

                          there were actually some calculations by math PhD Don Potts in the magazine in the '50s, theorizing that the shot would be affected by differential gravity betweenn the equator and higher latitudes. I don't remember which way was the (miniscule) advantage though.
                          That wasn't Potts - that was by me and Cordner Nelson included it in one of his columns after I had sent it to him. I hadn't intended for it to be in the magazine and as to the next comment about this, it took into account the varying diameter of the Earth at different latitudes as well as different altitudes.

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                          • #14
                            Interesting thread but from the purely emotional aspect I think Beamon's jump is the only Beamonesque performance in my six decades of following the sport. That's taking nothing away from Crouser's wonderful throw... it was awesome and what a treat to see his reaction. He knew he'd dome something momentous as soon as he released the shot.
                            But Beamon's jump was so stunning it was, for me, literally inconceivable. I walked into a bar with a TV after the competition was underway and asked the guy sitting next to me who was winning. He said Beamon, he just jumped 29 feet and something. I immediate reaction was to think "Jeez, that's what you get when you ask some clueless dude and he responds with an impossible answer."
                            I'd say the most Beamonesque shot result would be on a completely different level, Carter's 81 foot monster with the 12lb high school implement.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by bambam1729 View Post

                              That wasn't Potts - that was by me and Cordner Nelson included it in one of his columns after I had sent it to him. I hadn't intended for it to be in the magazine and as to the next comment about this, it took into account the varying diameter of the Earth at different latitudes as well as different altitudes.
                              Here's a JPG of the column

                              AltitudeLatitudeFormula.JPG

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