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    mcgato
    Senior Member

  • mcgato
    replied
    I thought Owens got put on the relay in 1936 because they decided not to use the Jewish runners.

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  • LopenUupunut
    Senior Member

  • LopenUupunut
    replied
    It's true the relay team selection rules were constantly in flux (and not using the top runners in relays was never any ironcast rule); but the inclusion of Owens and Metcalfe in the '36 relay squad was itself highly controversial. The '36 4x4 team did follow the same principle as the '32 teams and used the OT fourth- to seventh-placers; but for the 4x1 that would have meant including Mack Robinson, who qualified for the individual 200. While the official relay pool included the whole top seven (plus 200 man Bob Packard), the team "expected" to run was the OT third- to sixth-placers (Wykoff, Draper, Glickman and Stoller); and that squad trained together in the lead-up to Berlin. (It is fair to ask why the White Wykoff should be used, instead of the faster Black runners Owens or Metcalfe; especially since Metcalfe, like Wykoff, only had one individual event in Berlin. Wykoff did have previous relay experience, though; he'd even already run both events in 1928.)

    In the end, of course, both Owens and Metcalfe did get included; they were added at the last minute at the expense of Glickman and Stoller, and there's a lot behind that story. Draper was unimpressive in training leading up to the Olympics; and Robertson, who was still the head coach, publicly floated giving Draper's spot to Metcalfe, So the obvious question is: if not only was Metcalfe added but also Owens, how did Draper stay on the team with Glickman and Stoller getting shuffled out instead?

    The official version is that the team ended up using the top four from the Olympic Trials, won gold by more than a second, and set a WR that lasted for twenty years; so what need is there for asking questions? But Glickman and Stoller were definitely expected to run, even in the case of Metcalfe being added; and it's frequently speculated that as Jews they became victims of anti-Semitism. (The other whisper was that USC student Draper and former USC student Wykoff benefited from their connections to Dean Cromwell, head coach at USC and assistant coach of the national team.) Unfortunately, we may never know for sure.
    LopenUupunut
    Senior Member
    Last edited by LopenUupunut; 09-30-2021, 12:57 PM.

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  • Olli
    Senior Member

  • Olli
    replied
    OK, thanks for explanation, LUupunut. I seem to have had a wrong impression. And in 1936 Owens was in the relay team I believe, so the practice had changed then.

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  • LopenUupunut
    Senior Member

  • LopenUupunut
    replied
    It was the US team's usual approach in those days to limit the Trials top three to the individual events and to use lower-placed athletes in the relays. In '32 that resulted in an all-white men's 4x1 team; but the exclusion of Tolan and Metcalfe from it was not in any way racist, and the fastest White American, George Simpson, was also excluded by the same principle. (400-meter gold medalist Bill Carr was only used in the 4x4 as a substitute for an injured runner.)

    If anyone suffered from racism in the 1932 US men's 4x1 team selection process it was Jimmy Johnson, the Black sprinter who placed 6th at the Trials in both the 100 and the 200. Johnson was proposed for relay pool inclusion by the head coach (Lawson Robertson), but rejected by the Brundage-led Olympic Committee in favor of Hec Dyer and Bob Kiesel (4th and 5th in the 200).

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  • Olli
    Senior Member

  • Olli
    replied
    Wasn't it the case that the reasons why Tolan was not allowed to run in relays were purely racist? If you had been the coach, could you have decided, or were there orders given by those above you?

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  • Olli
    Senior Member

  • Olli
    replied
    (For some strange reason, my post was flagged as potential spam. I'll try again in two pieces.)

    When thinking of MZ, I had a faint recollection of Monika Zehrt as a name, but didn't quite remember what she had won and where, and therefore hadn't the courage to post the answer before checking. (The clues were a bit confusing, too; I thought C had won in North America, that is, Montreal:-) What a short career she had! No wonder my recollection was faint.

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  • DoubleRBar
    Senior Member

  • DoubleRBar
    replied
    Monika Zehrt celebrates 69 years today (Wednesday) . Very good, Peter Michaelson. Monika Zehrt won two Olympic gold medals in Munich (1972). She won the 400 and later ran the anchor leg (50.3) on the East German four by 400 relay that won the gold medal in West Germany. East Germany's winning time (3:22.95) was a world record.

    Eddie Tolan was born in Denver, Colorado 113 years ago today (Wednesday). NIce going, LopenUupunut. Eddie Tolan won two Olympic gold medals in Los Angeles (1932). He won the 100 and then won the 200. He did not run the relay. If I were the Olympic coach, I would have let him run the relay (for three Olympic gold medals). Tolan later became a teacher and he never married.

    Thank you Peter Michaelson, LopenUupunut, Olli, KDFINE, and noone.

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  • noone
    Senior Member

  • noone
    replied
    Originally posted by LopenUupunut View Post
    Eddie Tolan for ET?
    Why didn’t I think of that ?

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  • KDFINE
    Senior Member

  • KDFINE
    replied
    Originally posted by LopenUupunut View Post
    Eddie Tolan for ET?
    Dying at the age of 58 or 59 fits Tolan.

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  • LopenUupunut
    Senior Member

  • LopenUupunut
    replied
    Eddie Tolan for ET?

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  • Peter Michaelson
    Senior Member

  • Peter Michaelson
    replied
    OK, my brain was wrong about the spelling of her last name as I found out when I checked it!

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  • Peter Michaelson
    Senior Member

  • Peter Michaelson
    replied
    My brain says MZ = Monica Zhert (not sure about "Monica" spelling but pretty sure Zhert is correct).

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  • DoubleRBar
    Senior Member

  • DoubleRBar
    replied
    Olli, this is not one of my better days. It should be read as: "A" and "B" both won Olympic medals in North America.

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  • Olli
    Senior Member

  • Olli
    replied
    But Chizhova did not win in North America, did she?

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  • DoubleRBar
    Senior Member

  • DoubleRBar
    replied
    Originally posted by Olli View Post
    Is there something wrong with this hint:

    "A" and "C:" won Olympic gold medals in North America while "B" and "C" won Olympic gold medals at the same Olympics.

    If B is Chizhova, that implies C won in Munich, but that is not in North America according to my world map.
    Sorry about that error. It should have read: "A" and "B" won Olympic gold medals in North America.

    Yes, once you used a reference (looking it up), you are no longer eligible to answer.

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