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Hart and Robinson vs Borzov 1972

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  • #16
    Originally posted by JC100 View Post

    I've watched the final leg of the 4x100 relay too many times to count, and concluded that its just too difficult to determine the relative abilities of Hart and Borzov. Hart has a huge lead and Borzov seems to be looking around to see if the silver medal is safe. Borzov was a better starter than Hart, which is obviously nullified in a relay leg.
    I think this is a fair assessment. My group really wanted to find evidence that Hart wins easily, but we had to admit the relay didn't settle that definitively. I guess I'm in group 3, impossible to know. Just a shame not to be able to settle it on the track. Kind of like Ryun falling in the heats. Lots of things messed up @ Munich (Shorter, Basketball, Seagren), but only one real tragedy that had nothing to do with sports.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by JC100 View Post

      Yep, its been discussed to death.

      I am not sure Hart beats Taylor, let alone Borzov.

      Hart won only two 100m/y events in 1972, including the Olympic Trials, where he nudged ahead of Robinson and Taylor having almost missed out on the final entirely finishing fourth in his semi-final.

      Here is his entire season (sorry for the bad formatting):

      10.1m 2 29-Apr-72 Walnut (West Coast Relays)
      10.0m 1h2 13-May-72 Fresno
      10.1m 3 13-May-72 Fresno
      10.6m 2 20-May-72 Bakersfield
      10.2m 3 27-May-72 Modesto (windy)
      9.4ym 1 10-Jun-72 Berkeley
      10.1m 2q1 30-Jun-72 Eugene (3.6 m/s windy)
      9.9m 4s1 01-Jul-72 Eugene (4.7 m/s windy)
      9.9m 1 01-Jul-72 Eugene (0.9 m/s wind)
      10.2m 2r3 11-Aug-72 Viareggio
      10.47 1h11 31-Aug-72 Munich

      Hart did not run in the AAU or NCAA. I think the most we can say is that Hart was a very inconsistent runner. Taylor, on the other hand, won his pre-Olympic races (beating Crawford in Oslo and Robinson in Viareggio) while Hart lost to Crawford. Taylor looked to be the form US sprinter going into the Olympics. If Hart ran his best in the Olympic Final then he might have beaten Taylor but I strongly doubt he gets to Borzov. Robinson probably would not have threatened the medals. There is a good chance that a fully fit Hasely Crawford might have taken the bronze and perhaps the silver. In 1976 Harvey Glance had a much more impressive record going into the Olympics than Hart yet finished only fourth. Post 1968 US sprinting just wasn't that strong (unlucky Steve Williams aside).

      Just to be a bit controversial, I think there is a good chance that the 9.9 in the Olympic trials final was really wind-aided. I am not saying that there was a malfunction or deliberate deceit, just that the error margin on the gauge is enormous. Every race in the 100m at the trials was windy other than the final, and everyone in the final (not just Hart) ran abnormally fast. A wind speed of somewhere between 2.5 and 3.0 m/s explains the times pretty well (this is discussed in excruciating detail in my book). A lot of the expectation on Hart was due to this 9.9, as well as the subsequent commentary on if he could have beaten Borzov.

      I've watched the final leg of the 4x100 relay too many times to count, and concluded that its just too difficult to determine the relative abilities of Hart and Borzov. Hart has a huge lead and Borzov seems to be looking around to see if the silver medal is safe. Borzov was a better starter than Hart, which is obviously nullified in a relay leg.
      That was great and really appreciate the time and effort there, thank you very much, that was very cool!
      Last edited by Alcyallen; 01-02-2022, 01:28 AM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by noone View Post

        There are 4 kinds of people :
        1. Those that think Hart would have won
        2. Those that think Borzov would have won
        3. Those who think it's impossible to know
        4. Those who think there is no point in debating

        I am type 4.
        I have yet to see anyone who thinks Hart would have won, so much for number one.

        Comparing who Borzov was and his sprint exploits prior to 1972 vs Eddie Hart/Rey Robinson exploits it's really easy to see Borzov winning just like he did.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by noone View Post

          There are 4 kinds of people :
          1. Those that think Hart would have won
          2. Those that think Borzov would have won
          3. Those who think it's impossible to know
          4. Those who think there is no point in debating

          I am type 4.
          I am type 4, because of type 2.
          😊😊😊

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          • #20
            Back in the day there was a lot of opinion that Hart would have prevailed, but I think it was solely based on that one fast OT race. And, of course, the U.S. just HAD to beat the USSR since it was the cold war.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Steele View Post
              Back in the day there was a lot of opinion that Hart would have prevailed, but I think it was solely based on that one fast OT race. And, of course, the U.S. just HAD to beat the USSR since it was the cold war.
              Borzov was world ranked every season since 69, he was the top guy 1971, Robinson nowhere and Hart ranked once, 6th I think, Really can't see anything that suggested Borzov is losing to anyone, he was widely considered to be the fastest man in the world.

              I did see a 4x1 relay in 72, Hart hands off to Taylor right beside him USSR with Borzov anchoring, so there they are neck and neck at any minute Borzov will be.......nope, didn't happen Taylor beat him.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Alcyallen View Post

                That was great and really appreciate the time and effort there, thank you very much, that was very cool!
                My pleasure.

                Three other details here. First, a bit more on the wind speed for the 1972 US OT. As I mentioned, the semi-finals for the 100m, held at 5:45pm, had wind speeds of +4.7 and +3.5 m/s. At 7:00pm, the triple jump final began, where almost every jump was wind-aided, with an average wind speed of around 2.5 m/s. At 7:52 pm, the 100 metres final was run, presumably while the triple jump was still ongoing. This does not conclusively prove that the reported wind speed of 0.9 m/s for the 100m was incorrect, but the circumstantial evidence is pretty strong. Keep in mind that the semi-finals were awfully close contests with no clear favourites - in the first semi-final, with a massive +4.7 m/s helping wind and all runners presumably at full effort, the first five runners (including Robinson and Hart) each clocked 'only' 9.9 seconds.

                Second, there was another 'missing' runner in the 1972 100 metres. Pietro Mennea, at 19 years old, had chosen to run only in the 200 metres, where he won the bronze. During 1972 he was the only runner to really challenge Borzov, losing by a whisker to him in Milan. At Viareggio, just before the Olympics, Mennea beat Gerald Tinker by around a metre, remembering that Tinker was only a metre behind Hart at the US Olympic trials.

                Third, as Borzov crossed the finish line first in the 100 and 200, he raised both arms above his head, similar to many winners over the years. Interestingly, he also raised his arms finishing second in the 4x100m relay, a long way behind Hart, which I think is the only time I have seen a non-winning athlete do that. I wonder if it was almost an involuntary reaction for him.
                100m - A New Look at the World's Greatest Race

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by JC100 View Post

                  My pleasure.

                  Three other details here. First, a bit more on the wind speed for the 1972 US OT. As I mentioned, the semi-finals for the 100m, held at 5:45pm, had wind speeds of +4.7 and +3.5 m/s. At 7:00pm, the triple jump final began, where almost every jump was wind-aided, with an average wind speed of around 2.5 m/s. At 7:52 pm, the 100 metres final was run, presumably while the triple jump was still ongoing. This does not conclusively prove that the reported wind speed of 0.9 m/s for the 100m was incorrect, but the circumstantial evidence is pretty strong. Keep in mind that the semi-finals were awfully close contests with no clear favourites - in the first semi-final, with a massive +4.7 m/s helping wind and all runners presumably at full effort, the first five runners (including Robinson and Hart) each clocked 'only' 9.9 seconds.

                  Second, there was another 'missing' runner in the 1972 100 metres. Pietro Mennea, at 19 years old, had chosen to run only in the 200 metres, where he won the bronze. During 1972 he was the only runner to really challenge Borzov, losing by a whisker to him in Milan. At Viareggio, just before the Olympics, Mennea beat Gerald Tinker by around a metre, remembering that Tinker was only a metre behind Hart at the US Olympic trials.

                  Third, as Borzov crossed the finish line first in the 100 and 200, he raised both arms above his head, similar to many winners over the years. Interestingly, he also raised his arms finishing second in the 4x100m relay, a long way behind Hart, which I think is the only time I have seen a non-winning athlete do that. I wonder if it was almost an involuntary reaction for him.
                  Damn, that is simply great stuff, thank you very much. Forgot all about Mennea.

                  Do think there is little chance anyone in 72 was beating Borzov, pretty obvious he was Da Man that season.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by JC100 View Post

                    Third, as Borzov crossed the finish line first in the 100 and 200, he raised both arms above his head, similar to many winners over the years. Interestingly, he also raised his arms finishing second in the 4x100m relay, a long way behind Hart, which I think is the only time I have seen a non-winning athlete do that. I wonder if it was almost an involuntary reaction for him.
                    ?? I see silver and bronze winners do that all the time, when they are happy with that placing.

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                    • #25
                      Borzov had a reputation for doing just enough to win. It's a shame Hart and Robinson missed the start for their quarterfinals in Munich but I doubt either of them would have beaten Borzov at the 72 Olympics. Hart wou;d have given him the biggest challenge but I dont see him taking the gold. Reasons being, Borzov was in incredible form and unbeaen in 2 years and Hart was inconsistant . At the US trails he only just made the final (I think he came 4th in his semi).

                      I think Robinson has a slight injury at Munich and think he woul;d have been lucky to get a medal. Other factors being that he wasnt considered for the relay Team .. seems strange considering he was joint WR holder at the time). Strange considering he ran 9.9(hand timed) in the trials, 72 was Borzov's year. He was in the best form of his life and could have run close to 10.00 on the slow Munich Track. I think the final was run into a -0.3 wind and he did enough to win by beating Taylor by 0.10. When Borzov ran his PB in the 2nd round (Quarter final) he ran 10.07 beating Taylor by 0.09,

                      In the US trials, Taylor was only 0.05 behind Hart. Each race is different but Taylor was more or less an equal to Hart and Robinson at that time and Borzov in 1972 in my opinion would have won. I often read about Hart/Robinson beiong 9.9 WR holders etc, BUT, Taylor ran them so close at the US Trials but in the final 'only' ran 10.24. Taylor was closer to Hart and Robinson in 72 than he was to Borzov. In the 2 races they met in Munich, Borzov beat him by 0.09 and 0.10(the final)

                      In the 4x100m, Borzov was too far behind to cjhallenge and he knew it. Eddie HArt in interviews said the same thing so I dont feel we can judge from that how the 100m would have gone,.Also factoring in that prior to the 4x100m heats and final, Borzov ran 4 races in the 100m, 4 races in the 200m. Hart only ran the first round and would have been much fresher for the relay

                      Factoring everthing in, Borzov takes it from Hart with Taylor 3rd !!
                      Last edited by Athletics_fan_UK; 02-18-2022, 11:29 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Athletics_fan_UK View Post
                        Factoring everthing in, Borzov takes it from Hart with Taylor 3rd !!
                        Wow, talk about Monday morning quarterbacking - how about 50-years worth of Mondays!

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                        • #27
                          As I said before, Borzov won and was the Olympic champion. All the talk afterwards is just a guess.

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                          • #28
                            pretty good look at Hart v. Borzov anchor 4x1 Munich... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whrhR4JkxUY

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