Question about 1970s British miler

[DrJay]

Googled but couldn't find anything about Ray Raymond, who I met today. Born in 1956, said he ran a 3:58 mile and competed in the 1972 British Olympic Trials. He would have been only 16. Maybe a 3:58 1500 and competed in some junior-level nationals of some sort in the 1970s? I'm always amazed when I hear some claim to a great mark or participation in some big meet that seems maybe plausible, then proves false. Sometimes I think these folks are just plain lying, sometimes I think that they really remember running 3:58 for the mile when they didn't. Go figure.

[gm]

He ain't on this list -- https://trackandfieldnews.com/wp-con...ister-2021.pdf

[El Toro]

Trickstat or others might correct me but I think the UK never had separate trials back then, they mostly used the AAA championships placings. For example, the 1972 AAA 1500 placings were:

1. Peter Stewart 3:38.22
2. Ray Smedley 3:38.52
3. John Kirkbride 3:38.68
4. Brendan Foster 3:39.25

and Smedley, Kirkbride and Big Bren went to Munich. I couldn't find out what happened to Stewart (brother of Ian) but presume injury given his competition history doesn't go past those champs.

So, your colleague might have competed at the AAAs in 1972, except that was Open competition only and held at Crystal Palace whereas the Junior and U-17 were held together at Kirkby in 1972.

I couldn't find his name in any NUTS online list for 1500/mile or at all on the PowerOf10 site https://thepowerof10.info/athletes/athleteslookup.aspx but data is incomplete for earlier athletes even well known internationals.

So the mile time is a definite no, especially as sub-4 in an actual mile wasn't that common in the 70s or 80s, so would definitely have been picked up or 800/15003000 of similar standard. Here's the number of new sub-4 added each year for the UK from 1972 to 1990 (ages 16 to 34 for your guy):

72	3
73	1
74	3
75	6
76	3
77	6
78	4
79	7
80	2
81	1
82	5
83	4
84	8
85	7
86	11
87	4
88	5
89	8
90	3

[Trickstat]

Here is the all-time UK outdoor mile list for under 20s. As you can see only 5 have run sub 4 and most of those are called Steve:

https://www.thepowerof10.info/rankin...ex=M&alltime=y

There was a Ray Roseman who ran sub 4 in 1969 but he would appear to be over 80 now if still alive.

[DrJay]

A very interesting guy, former British diplomat, went to Oxford, was affiliated with Yale, teaches at SUNY Ulster and West Point. Talk with him for a good bit and a lot of fun to talk to. Just blows me away when someone like that confabulate a 3:58 mile and running the nonexistent British Olympic trials. I asked him if he knew Nick Rose or Tony Staynings or any of the other Brits that ran for Western Kentucky in the 1970sand he drew a complete blank, even on Nick Rose. That right there seemed pretty suspect.

[gm]

Not a colleague, he was in the office for another reason. But a very interesting guy, former British diplomat, went to Oxford, was affiliated with Yale, teaches at SUNY Ulster and West Point. Talk with him for a good bit and a lot of fun to talk to. Just blows me away when someone like that confabulate a 3:58 mile and running the nonexistent British Olympic trials. I asked him if he knew Nick Rose or Tony Staynings or any of the other Brits that ran for Western Kentucky in the 1970sand he drew a complete blank, even on Nick Rose. That right there seemed pretty suspect.

This guy?

https://blog.sunyulster.edu/noteworthy-keynote-address-by-dr-ray-raymond/

[DrJay]

Yes! He really was a blast to talk to.

[El Toro]

This guy?

https://blog.sunyulster.edu/notewort...r-ray-raymond/

Not to belabour the point, but if he was at Oxford and a member of the Oxford University Athletic Club then he did not make their top 10 list:

https://www.ouac.org/all-time-list#tab-1882271

Also, in line with the facts not fiction credo, that SUNY article contains a number of minor incorrect statements but thankfully ones that appear to be misunderstandings and not exaggerations from Professor Raymond:

1. "..he was honored by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II with the Order of the British Empire." This is not a complete description as the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire has 5 classes and Dr Raymond Charles Raymond is a Member, which is the lowest class. In USA military terms, this would be like just saying he was awarded "a Star" or "a Cross".

These sorts of British awards can easily be incorrectly stated or upgraded (OBE insted of MBE), especially in the USA which is unfamiliar with them. However, I'm pleased to say that his MBE is definitely a legitimate award that can be confirmed by going to Page 36 of The London Gazette of Thursday 30 December 1999, Supplement No. 1. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/...0/supplement/1

2. "...he advised then British Prime Minister Tony Blair..." Again, not quite right given his job as Vice Consul, British Consulate-General, New York. A likely more correct description is "...he advised the Chief of Staff to British Prime Minister Tony Blair.." which is found in his profile at https://blog.sunyulster.edu/notewort...r-ray-raymond/

His CV seems impressive enough without needing "a 3:58 mile", although I understand that some academic types might need a sporting achievement to round out their self story.

[noone]

DrJay, are you going to confront Raymond with this research? I'm curious what he has to say.

[bambam1729]

DrJay, are you going to confront Raymond with this research? I'm curious what he has to say.

Unlikely. I had a patient one time tell me he was an Olympic swimmer in 1960 and 1964, but he was telling that to the wrong guy. I checked our databases and he never swam or was entered at the Olympics, although oddly, his sister did. I never said anything to him about it.

[gm]

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Offer him a nice glass of this...