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400 IH; the top 5 all time

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  • kuha
    replied
    Great discussion. My hat's off to all involved.

    Leave a comment:


  • CookyMonzta
    replied
    Re: 400 IH; the top 5 all time

    [quote=Flumpy]
    Originally posted by Andrea_T
    Originally posted by CookyMonzta
    Originally posted by "6 5.5hjsteve":3dgf2cmf
    And for the women:

    1. Sally Gunnell (U.K.)
    2. Deon Hemmings (Jamaica)
    3. Kim Batten (U.S.)
    4. Marina Stepanova (USSR)
    5. Sandra Farmer-Patrick (Jamaica/U.S.)
    6. Debbie Flintoff (Australia)
    7. Nezha Bidouane (Morocco)
    8. Tatyana Ledovskaya (USSR/Belarus)
    9. Ellen Fiedler (E. Germany)
    10. Irina Privalova (Russia)*
    No Busch???!!! :shock:
    Not only should Sabine be in the top 10, she should probably be in the Top 5 (Maybe even 3). Nezha should be way higher as well.
    [/quote:3dgf2cmf]
    Therein lies my problem. Sabine Busch makes a good case for the number 10 spot, but not much further up the list than that. Ellen Fiedler, who took up this event in 1979 or 1980, was ranked number 1 in 1981, and ranked 6 times in the top 10 in a 9-year span, 3 times in the top 3.

    As for Busch, despite ranking number 1 or 2 for 3 years before dropping to 3rd ahead of Fiedler in 1988, it was Fiedler who took the bronze away from her in Seoul. Fiedler's bronze and her early record of rankings decided this one for me. So, knock off Privalova, and insert Busch for number 10.

    Leave a comment:


  • wamego relays champ
    replied
    Re: 400 IH; the top 5 all time

    Originally posted by Anonymous
    > And while Schmidt began the streak, Phillips ended it in the best way possible.

    Point of clarification. If we are referring to "THE STREAK" it was not Phillips who ended it.

    From USATF Moses bio:
    "He didn't lose again for another nine years, nine months and nine days until he was defeated on June 4, 1987 by Danny Harris in Madrid, Spain."

    Leave a comment:


  • dj
    replied
    Originally posted by paulthefan
    [heck they dont eve have the
    $$ to include one page text bios of Hardin or Davis...
    Glenn Davis
    http://www.usatf.com/HallOfFame/TF/show ... ?HOFIDs=40

    Slats Hardin
    http://www.usatf.com/HallOfFame/TF/show ... ?HOFIDs=67

    Leave a comment:


  • paulthefan
    replied
    Originally posted by Per Andersen
    But I like this numbers game since I see there is a case for Glenn Davis as No1 of all time.

    How about this? Give Davis 1 second for the Tartan track and another 1 1/2 sec for training and racing like Moses and we are looking at around 46.5!

    Good points, that first 1 second for the less lossy synthetic surface I think is reasonable... 1.5 seconds for training advantages is a bit of a stretch.... if we give him .75 (and that is alot) that puts him in the low 47s.


    By the way how tall/big were Davis and Hardin ?... Moses was 6'2+" if I recall.... for one of the better bios that USATF has put together:

    http://www.usatf.org/athletes/bios/oldB ... _Edwin.asp

    at least he had the good sense and support to hire the best agent and coaching team...



    Imagine if they could put together a multimedia bio of Moses on that site.. complete with clips of the '76 and '84 oly. games finals....
    But who at USATF has $$ to do that.. .. heck they dont eve have the
    $$ to include one page text bios of Hardin or Davis...

    Leave a comment:


  • Per Andersen
    replied
    I can't remember the excact words. I don't have the book with me now, but in "Track's Greatest Champions" Cordner Nelson said something about Moses' huge, lunging 8 1/2 ft stride not being suitable for the 400.
    It was great for the hurdles race but was overstriding in the 400 flat race.

    But I like this numbers game since I see there is a case for Glenn Davis as No1 of all time.

    How about this? Give Davis 1 second for the Tartan track and another 1 1/2 sec for training and racing like Moses and we are looking at around 46.5!

    Leave a comment:


  • paulthefan
    replied
    Originally posted by dj
    Edwin Moses's PRs:
    Moses's best net: -0.88 (-1.28 if one uses Evans's 43.86A '68)

    Kevin Young's PRs:
    Young's net: -1.58

    Proving that you can find a way to make even the otherworldly PRs of Young look unimpressive....

    Leave a comment:


  • dj
    replied
    Edwin Moses's PRs:
    400 45.60 '77 (WR low-alt Juanotrena 44.26 '76), Moses -1.34
    400H 47.02 '83 (2nd best a-t: Schmid 47.48 '82), Moses +0.46
    400H 47.13 '80 (2nd best a-t: Akii-Bua 47.82 '72), Moses +0.69

    Moses's best net: -0.88 (-1.28 if one uses Evans's 43.86A '68)

    Kevin Young's PRs:
    400 45.11 '92 (WR 43.29 Reynolds '88), Young -1.82
    400H 46.78 '92 (2nd best a-t: Moses 47.02 '83), Young +0.24

    Young's net: -1.58

    Leave a comment:


  • bambam
    replied
    Responding to DJ's post re Hardin and G Davis being head/shoulders above all others in 400/400IH -

    What were Edwin Moses's and Kevin Young's PRs in the open 400?

    Leave a comment:


  • paulthefan
    replied
    well after a bit of research I come up with

    1) Edwin Moses
    2) Glenn Hardin
    3) Glenn Davis
    4) John Aki Bua
    5) Harald Schmid

    Leave a comment:


  • dj
    replied
    Showing that a statistician can prove anything with numbers, here are the pertinent figures for Glenn Hardin in 1934 and Glenn Davis in 1958 and the comparisions to the WR or 2nd-best performer in history at that time.

    Hardin: 46.8 440y (0.4 short of Ben Eastman's 46.4y WR), 50.6 400H WR (#2 performer all-time was Bob Tisdall at 51.7).

    Davis: 45.7 440y (0.2 short of Lou Jones's 45.2 400m WR), 49.2 400H WR (#2 performer a-t was Potgieter at 49.7y).

    Hardin is 0.4 short in the 400, 1.1 ahead in the 400H, a net of 0.7 ahead.

    Davis is 0.2 short in the 400, 0.2 ahead in the 400H, a net of 0.0.

    Numbers advantage to Hardin, and no one else in history would be close to either of them.

    On the other hand, I certainly believe Davis to be the greater hurdler of the two, for many of the reasons GH pointed out.

    Leave a comment:


  • Per Andersen
    replied
    Originally posted by dj
    Potgieter's 49.3yA is also aided by having been run on a 550y track, hence only one turn.
    Well, you guys shot down Potgieter's 49.3. I should have remembered about the altitude. I certainly did not know about the one turn track.

    But still, he ran 49.7y at Cardiff in '58. He had a great undefeated run in '59 and early '60 before the injury. So based on my belief that Davis was better in '58 than in '60 I think Potgieter could have made it very interesting in Rome.

    Leave a comment:


  • Flumpy
    replied
    Re: 400 IH; the top 5 all time

    [quote=Andrea_T]
    Originally posted by CookyMonzta
    Originally posted by "6 5.5hjsteve":w8cp9uhv
    And for the women:

    1. Sally Gunnell (U.K.)
    2. Deon Hemmings (Jamaica)
    3. Kim Batten (U.S.)
    4. Marina Stepanova (USSR)
    5. Sandra Farmer-Patrick (Jamaica/U.S.)
    6. Debbie Flintoff (Australia)
    7. Nezha Bidouane (Morocco)
    8. Tatyana Ledovskaya (USSR/Belarus)
    9. Ellen Fiedler (E. Germany)
    10. Irina Privalova (Russia)*
    No Busch???!!! :shock:
    [/quote:w8cp9uhv]

    Not only should Sabine be in the top 10, she should probably be in the Top 5 (Maybe even 3). Nezha should be way higher as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • bambam
    replied
    This is a great thread. One of my favorites ever.

    Leave a comment:


  • dj
    replied
    Originally posted by KDFINE
    As once related in T&Fn, didn't Josh Culbreath, upon returning from racing Potgieter in South Africa, in '57 or '58, tell Davis that Potgieter was the greatest? Any list has to have Moses (who was boycotted out of '80), Davis (who ended his career for a fling at pro football), and Potgieter (who car crashed out of '60). Leave the arguments for the last 2 names on the list!
    Probably true, but this would have occurred before Davis's great 1958 season and his second OG gold in 1960.

    Leave a comment:

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