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Smith Disputes Carlos Version Of '68 Race In New Book

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  • #16
    I ran in the Hartford half marathon in 1995. In my age group was Bill Rodgers. He beat me by 5 mins. It has just occured to me that i did indeed let him win for obvious reasons. :roll:
    phsstt!

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    • #17
      To quote Shakespeare (Henry V - speech before the battle of Agincourt) "Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot/But he'll remember with advantages/What feats he did that day" - that's what has appeared to happen to Mr Carlos. In '67-68 the score was Smith 7 and Carlos 1. The Carlos win was in the OT where he beat Smith by 0.26 - he would have won anyway that day, but Smith was hindered by a good fifth of a second by the unaccustomed lane 1 draw (on a tight 6 lane track). GH is almost certainly correct that Carlos would have won silver if he'd stayed focused after Smith caught him - the video shows him constantly looking to his left as though he was worried about Bambuck or Fray, when he should have been looking straight ahead - he's overstriding from 40 to 50m from home and has clearly lost form. The comment from 1 e-mailer that Norman had left his race in the early rounds is nonsense. Norman, whose heat time was 20.23 (not 20.17) had a pre-Mexico pb of 20.5. At altitude he'd run 20.3 a week before the 1st round of the 200. The altitude and good quality synthetic surface was probably 3 to 4/10ths advantage, so his 3 rounds of 20.23-20.44-20.22 while he was at the peak of his career were not too wearing - as his 20.06 showed. Norman never ran faster than 10.3 for 100 metres, so was always going to be trailing Carlos at 100, and catching him over the last 50. Carlos's problem was that he wasn't bright enough to know that. If he had been smart he might have had a quick glance to his right where Norman was fast approaching.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by gh
        Originally posted by trackworld
        Carlos sure is chattin some bull there. Why does the clock stop at 19.78? Was there a built-in delay on the clock or something?
        yes.
        Back in those early years full e timing, there was indeed a .05 delay built in. It was retroactively eliminated several years later.

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        • #19
          No 19.6 for Smith on that day. He had strained his hamstring in the semi's, and there was much doubt if he would be able to finish.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by rhymans
            GH is almost certainly correct that Carlos would have won silver if he'd stayed focused after Smith caught him - the video shows him constantly looking to his left as though he was worried about Bambuck or Fray,
            when he should have been looking straight ahead - he's overstriding from 40 to 50m from home and has clearly lost form. .
            The notion that a fellow falling apart is looking around because he wants only to run as fast as he has to for a silver is flawed.. rather the fellow is looking around desperately because he feels the wheels coming off the axle and he is in a panic over it... he finishes 3rd whether he looks forward or sideways.


            Originally posted by rhymans
            The comment from 1 e-mailer that Norman had left his race in the early rounds is nonsense. Norman, whose heat time was 20.23 (not 20.17) had a pre-Mexico pb of 20.5. At altitude he'd run 20.3 a week before the 1st round of the 200. The altitude and good quality synthetic surface was probably 3 to 4/10ths advantage, so his 3 rounds of 20.23-20.44-20.22 while he was at the peak of his career were not too wearing - as his 20.06 showed. Norman never ran faster than 10.3 for 100 metres, so was always going to be trailing Carlos at 100, and catching him over the last 50. Carlos's problem was that he wasn't bright enough to know that. If he had been smart he might have had a quick glance to his right where Norman was fast approaching.
            Carlos was plenty bright enough, panic strikes when the legs give up the ghost.... as for Norman, by your calculation he goes into his round one with a PR of 20.5 and runs a 20.23A which we can altitude correct to say a 20.5 or 20.6... so he runs at most 1/10 under his PR in the initial round of the Olympics and you say he did not overdue it... how often would you say running 1/10 from your PR in the first of a 4 round event is not too much too soon.... Look at the video and see that he runs 4m ahead of the second place fellow, it is obvious... that is a terrible waste of energy and nerves.. it likely cost him a 1/10 in the final...

            Carlos made the same mistake in the semi and if anything cost him the silver medal it was runnign the semi as hard as he did... certainly NOT looking around as his legs went to rubber in the final.. the hay was in the barn at that point.

            Had Tommie only done what was necessary in the semi I think 19.6 was in the cards.
            ... nothing really ever changes my friend, new lines for old, new lines for old.

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            • #21
              In terms of these sprint times, I'd suggest that for everything the flatlander 5 and 10 k guys lost, the 200 guys gained. At that altitude, on that track, it would have been rather hard NOT to PR, I suspect...

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              • #22
                Somewhere I've seen video of the race that shows facial expressions much more clearly, and the face that Carlos has when Smith 'blows by him' (as indeed he does) is not one of smug satisfaction - it's one of genuine dismay as Carlos realizes that Smith couldn't be recaught. Carlos really did 'lose it' after that as you see him stagger and windmill his arms. That's not the style of a man who's shutting it down to let a teammate win (not to mention the illogic JC uses in the podium bit. If he, JC had won and TS were second, he'd have his perfect scenario to make the Gesture)!

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                • #23
                  Interview with Tommie Smith on the CBS Early Show this week(includes video).

                  http://tinyurl.com/2dnhhx
                  https://twitter.com/walnuthillstrak

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                  • #24
                    Paul the Fan wrote:

                    Norman, by your calculation he goes into his round one with a PR of 20.5 and runs a 20.23A which we can altitude correct to say a 20.5 or 20.6... so he runs at most 1/10 under his PR in the initial round of the Olympics and you say he did not overdue it... how often would you say running 1/10 from your PR in the first of a 4 round event is not too much too soon.... Look at the video and see that he runs 4m ahead of the second place fellow, it is obvious... that is a terrible waste of energy and nerves.. it likely cost him a 1/10 in the final...

                    You may be right, but... look at at the facts
                    OG Final Best time Pre-OG
                    OG Prelims PR
                    Smith 19.83 20.14 20.14A
                    Norman 20.06 20.22 20.5 Hand
                    Carlos 20.10 20.12 19.92A
                    Roberts 20.34 20.44 20.3 Hand '64
                    Bambuck 20.51 20.47 20.51 '67
                    Questad 20.62 20.48 20.28A
                    Fray 20.63 20.46 20.1 Hand
                    Eigenherr 20.66 20.49 20.7 Hand

                    Of the finalists,3 ran lifetime bests in the final - can you really say that any of those 3 was hindered by how they ran in the prelims, particularly when 4 of the 8 obviously underperformed, while one (Carlos) clearly lost at least 1/10th (possibly 2/10ths) by losing concentration. Norman ran superbly, and I've never heard anyone previously suggest that he could have run faster, especially when you consider that he was 0.16 faster than in the semis, and about 4 metres quicker than he he'd ever run prior to Mexico [20.5 +0.24 for hand timing, less say 0.3 for altitude = 20.44]

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by rhymans
                      You may be right, but... look at at the facts
                      OG Final Best time Pre-OG
                      OG Prelims PR
                      Smith 19.83 20.14 20.14A
                      Norman 20.06 20.22 20.5 Hand
                      Carlos 20.10 20.12 19.92A
                      Roberts 20.34 20.44 20.3 Hand '64
                      Bambuck 20.51 20.47 20.51 '67
                      Questad 20.62 20.48 20.28A
                      Fray 20.63 20.46 20.1 Hand
                      Eigenherr 20.66 20.49 20.7 Hand

                      Of the finalists,3 ran lifetime bests in the final - can you really say that any of those 3 was hindered by how they ran in the prelims,
                      actually yes, I think that all three were,

                      Smith injured himself in his semi, had he not won by 4 meters there he goes 19.6 in the final. Carlos ran a 20.1 in his semi ...unnecessary, big mistake...
                      Norman overdid it in all his rounds.


                      The lower tier fellows were stretched to the max to get into the final so their poor performance is as much a function of them having to run their best just to make it to the final.. so again the principle applies: The harder you (have to) run in the rounds the less you have for the final...

                      OK to summarize,

                      1) there is nothing any of the OTHER competitors/finalists could have done in terms of how they managed their rounds to have broken into the top 3... the fact is that Smith/Norman/Carlos were not going to be knocked off the podium except by bizarre circumstances.

                      All three winners made big mistakes:
                      2) Of these three, Carlos' semifinal was the biggest, after running his rounds strong he blows out a whopper 20.1 in the semifinal leaves even Norman a meter down.. that likely cost him the silver medal. For even if Norman had run his rounds wisely/judiciously it is possible that a fresh Carlos holds him off even if barely, with both easily getting under 20.

                      3) Norman runs his rounds in recklessly. All of his rounds seem to be gangbuster rounds, he is running all 4 of them like a man fighting to get into the final when in fact he is a shoe in. This costs him at least a 1/10 in the final. Winning an opening round by 4m is just plain wasteful.

                      4) Tommie overdoes it in his semi too, goes into the final with a less than perfect leg because of it... and for what reason? to win his semi by 4 meters? very poor trade.

                      Had all three run their rounds wiser, they all go under 20 easily and Carlos perhaps just barely holds off Norman by a whisker for silver. Tommie wins in 19.6A.

                      Again Carlos' mistake is NOT that he gave up in the closing 40m of the final, rather it is that because of how he ran his semi there is nothing left to give in the closing 40m of that final straight. So in the final analysis he is fairly beaten by Smith and Norman.
                      ... nothing really ever changes my friend, new lines for old, new lines for old.

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                      • #26
                        For his semifinal effort, Carlos should have at least gotten credit (if retroactively) for an auto-timed WR, 20.12. If he thought Tommie was likely going to blitz him in the final, maybe he decided to grab a WR while he could ..? And maybe strike a little fear? He was possibly miffed that his 19.92 at OTs was disallowed.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by bf
                          For his semifinal effort, Carlos should have at least gotten credit (if retroactively) for an auto-timed WR, 20.12. If he thought Tommie was likely going to blitz him in the final, maybe he decided to grab a WR while he could ..?
                          I very much doubt that he thought any such thing. In fact, given that it was the Olympic Games, I doubt that he was thinking of records at all, or anything else other than the podium.

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                          • #28
                            Carlos has always been a flake.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Texas
                              Carlos has always been a flake.
                              At his speed, he can be as flaky as he wanna be!

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by tafnut
                                Originally posted by Texas
                                Carlos has always been a flake.
                                At his speed, he can be as flaky as he wanna be!
                                A third place in the 200, is not ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL that.

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