Couda been 1st man under 1'43 ?

[eldrick]

probably asked here a 100 times before ( but it's a slow day ! )

i'm wondering whether someone else was capable of cracking 1'43 before coe made his seismic leap of shattering caballo's 1'43.44 with 1'42.33 in '79 :

1' 42" 33. Sebastian Coe, GBR, 05 Jul 79, Oslo
1' 43" 44. Alberto Juantorena, CUB, 21 Aug 77, Sofia.
1' 43" 50. Alberto Juantorena, CUB 16 Jul 76, Montreal.
1' 43" 5 Rick Wohlhuter, USA, 08 Jun 74, Eugene.
1:44.1y Rick Wohlhuter. USA, 08 Jun 74, Eugene
1' 43" 7 Marcello Fiasconaro, ITA, 27 Jun 73, Milano
1' 44" 0 Rick Wohlhuter, USA, 27 May 73, Los Angeles.
1' 44" 3 David Wottle, USA, 01 Jul 72, Eugene.
1' 44" 3 Ralph Doubell, AUS, 15 Oct 68, Mexico City.
1' 44" 9y Jim Ryun, USA, 10 Jun 66, Terre Haute
1' 44" 3 Peter Snell, NZL, 02 Feb 62, Christchurch

- snell in '62 ran 1'44.3 on a GRASS track, which you gotta figure was worth close to 1'43-flat on a modern synthetic track

- ryun aged just 19y ( !!! ) equalled the above with a 1'44.3 on a cinder in '66 - again likely close to a 1'43-flat on synthetic, but remember, he was more mature & faster over 1500/mile 1 year later & presumably at his tender age meant also, over 800m - if he'd spent '67 running maybe exclusively well-paced 800s, might we be talking times ~ 1'42.0 - 1'42.5 equivalent on synthetics !?!?

- doubell 1'44.3 in mexico ( i think mexico's altitude may be time-neutral for 800m compared to sea-level ( obviously 400s quicker in mexico, but 1500s slower there, compared to sea-level ), so i'm not sure you coud take much off that ( presumably it was a reasonably well-paced race ( kenyan in 2nd took it out hard ) )

- wottle 1'44.3 - no idea if he was worth quicker - i'll leave it to the knowlegeable guyz here to discuss him

- kipkurgat - 1'43.91 win in '74 commonwealths & ran a scarely believable 1'13.2 split for 600m in an 800m race that year !!!

- wohl - i'll leave it to the knowlegeable guyz here to
discuss him

- fiasconaro 1'43.7 - a greenhorn 800m runner who had just basically moved up from 400m to 800m 1 or 2 seasons before, but i believe injury scuppered his career

- van damme - coud he have done it if not for tragedy ?

- caballo - in a race against boit in ?'77 he won in ~ 1'44-flat off a ridiculously slow 400m of i believe ~ 52.0 - faster 1st lap that day, are we talking < 1'43 ?

[paulthefan]

Re: Couda been 1st man under 1'43 ?

- snell in '62 ran 1'44.3 on a GRASS track, Yes

- ryun aged just 19y ( !!! ) equalled the above with a 1'44.3 on a cinder Yes

- kipkurgat - 1'43.91 win in '74 commonwealths Yes

- van damme - coud he have done it if not for tragedy Yes

- caballo - Yes

[eldrick]

well, that killed the topic stone-dead ! :cry: :cry: :cry:

[John G]

How about Luciano Susanj?

He ran 1:44.07 in the 74 Euros. I'll check the tape of the race but my recollection is that it was an unevenly paced race and included a devastating kick with 200 to go. He was certainly capable of quicker.

I agree Juantorena and Boit were in sub 1:43 form in the 77 World Cup. Greatest 800 I've ever seen. The 400 split was I believe 52.3 for the leader (52.5 for Juantorena). That only tells part of the story - they wasted time and energy watching each other and running wide.

[eldrick]

many thanks - please check vid & give us splits

also, how about olaf ?

1'43.84 when beating ovett/coe - i don't think his splits were ideal either ( they may have been more even than the duo, as he did hang off a bit whilst those 2 fought it out up front )

[eldrick]

this link here suggests fiasconaro ran his 1'43.7 leading all the way !

http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] ... 09749.html

( excellent pacing by a rabbit on 1st lap, with main athlete tucked in as close behind as possible, can gain you upto ~ 1s/lap, so <1'43 was certainly possible with a rabbit )

[Rog]

Re: Couda been 1st man under 1'43 ?

Rudolf Harbig ran 800m in 1.46.6 in 1939, also had 46 400m speed - given the altogether different conditions in those days, I think the same athlete may be worth 1.42 were to to break through in a later era, say the 70s... those times would both stand up as impressive performances even now. What do you think he would be capable of on a modern track with modern training/equipment etc, Eldrick?

[dj]

Ryun's 1:44.9 880y was run on a grasstex track (I think), but not cinders.

And not that it helps much more than a few tenths, but Harbig's run was on a 500m track, so he ran only three turns.

[eldrick]

Re: Couda been 1st man under 1'43 ?

Rudolf Harbig ran 800m in 1.46.6 in 1939, also had 46 400m speed - given the altogether different conditions in those days, I think the same athlete may be worth 1.42 were to to break through in a later era, say the 70s... those times would both stand up as impressive performances even now. What do you think he would be capable of on a modern track with modern training/equipment etc, Eldrick?

rog

that's well before my time !

i'm sure he probably coud !

to simply things, i didn't suggest the real ole-timers who wouda needed adjustments for training/nutrition, but guys who coud have just stepped immediately onto a modern synthetic track with modern spikes & challenged 1'43 in an "ideal" race - that list begins with snell

[eldrick]

additional candidates :

- boit

as mentioned in john's post - i'm sure if they ran that same race a few times, boit may have won some significant %age of them against caballo ( obviously less than 50% though ), as in the end, it was a desperate finish from both men : 1'44.04 to 1'44.14

- ovett

he did end up running 1'44.09 behind olaf, but he was by then primarily a 1500 runner ( albeit did the 800 in montreal ) - & dominant with it - his '77 season with season ending magnificent world cup win was one of the great seasons of all-time

however, feeling maybe that he had lessened his 800 training between '76 - '78, whilst concentrating on the 1500, & perhaps assumption is that he ran that 800 off mostly 1500 training ( like ryun above ? ) ?

now, it's been stated before that him & coe ran some pretty uneven splits upto 600 in that race, so maybe, if he'd run it ideally he couda gone 1'43.5 - 1'43.75 that day with the better pacing ( almost the wr of 1'43.44 ! )

add another assumption that if he'd strictly concentrated on 800m between '76 - '78, instead of oddly ( ? prematurely moving upto 1500 in '77 ( difficult to call it premature, as he was a dominant number 1 over 1500 in '77 ) ) moving upto 1500 immediately after montreal, then he may have had a better progression, leading to a better time than the 1'43.5 - 1'43.75 form he had in prague

lot of assumptions for him, but i don't think they are completely groundless

[SQUACKEE]

Snell and Ryun with Jim getting the nod at 1:42.97.

[eldrick]

Ryun's 1:44.9 880y was run on a grasstex track (I think), but not cinders

i tried to find out about grasstex & it appears the company didn't come into existence until '76 :

http://www.grass-tex.com/profile.htm

so, maybe some other surface/company ?

[tandfman]

I'm pretty sure there were Grasstex tracks in the '60's. It's possible that this surface has nothing to do with the company you're referring to.

[gh]

Grasstex was one of the first synthetics. A little creative googling shows this from Georgia's pressbook:


<< Finally, the track still in use today was originally built from Athletic Department funds in 1965. First made out of synthetic material called Grasstex, ...>>

[John G]

many thanks - please check vid & give us splits

also, how about olaf ?

1'43.84 when beating ovett/coe - i don't think his splits were ideal either ( they may have been more even than the duo, as he did hang off a bit whilst those 2 fought it out up front )

Unfortunately I only have the last 180m of the Rome 74 race on dvd. Susanj's burst at that point, past two E.Germans and Fiasconaro in the space of 20 m ,is astonishing. According to AW, the split at 600 was 77.6 for Fiasconaro, who was 4m up on the 2 Germans with Ovett 4th. Susanj must have been at least 5m down on the Italian so his last 200 was certainly sub-26 second.

Beyer's splits in 78 were (according to AW), 49.5 or 49.6 and c76.7.