1996 Oly 4x1..revisited

[Texas]

Let's run it again with the USA "A" team there...

Jon Drummond opens up a solid meter on Esmie
Leroy Burrell adds another meter on Gilbert
Dennis Mitchell adds another meter on Surin

Ok..so there's the current "World's Fastest Human" up against "da man" as far as the 4x1 goes, the great Carl Lewis. The King has a three meter cushion, can he hold it? No he can't! He can however save a meter of it. Yep a USA win!

Ok let's look at how it really went. Tim Harden got destroyed! That was the race! As we know those four I mentioned above were probably the best at their particular leg. Can a team of 10.10 guys and Donovan Bailey beat them? Ah....nope!!!!

[trackworld]

Re: 1996 Oly 4x1..revisited

Let's run it again with the USA "A" team there...

Jon Drummond opens up a solid meter on Esmie
Leroy Burrell adds another meter on Gilbert
Dennis Mitchell adds another meter on Surin

Bruny split 9.25 on 3rd leg, a time that Dennis only bettered once with his 9.22 in Tokyo. I doubt that Mitchell would've put a metre on him, I actually think Surin would've held him. The again, Mitchell was in good 100m form in 96

[Track fan]

The US never lost, they just got beat........ :lol: :roll:

[STL_Runner]

Canada's splits were:

Robert Esmie 10.47
Glenroy Gilbert 9.02
Bruny Surin 9.25
Donovan Bailey 8.95

37.69

US Splits were:

Jon Drummond 10.37
Tim Harden 9.36
Michael Marsh 9.27
Dennis Mitchell 9.05

38.05

Pretty obvious that Tim Harden was the MAIN reason the US lost.

I think a US team of

Jon Drummond
Michael Marsh
Dennis Mitchell
Carl Lewis

MIGHT have been able to pull out a win. Leroy Burrell was injured so he can't really be considered.

[Powell]

Pretty obvious that Tim Harden was the MAIN reason the US lost.

But wasn't Harden's split caused mostly by a bad changeover rather than bad running? And make no mistake, 9.02 on the second leg is great running. The US might have lost less ground on that leg, but to actually gain on Canada was unlikely. Gilbert might not have been an individual superstar, but as a relay runner he was excellent, and Canada's team was a well-oiled machine.

[Track fan]

Pretty obvious that Tim Harden was the MAIN reason the US lost.

But wasn't Harden's split caused mostly by a bad changeover rather than bad running? And make no mistake, 9.02 on the second leg is great running. The US might have lost less ground on that leg, but to actually gain on Canada was unlikely. Gilbert might not have been an individual superstar, but as a relay runner he was excellent, and Canada's team was a well-oiled machine.

He was similar to an Eastern Bloc sprinter, throw out a whatever name from the Soviet relay teams and he performed similar individually and team wise.

[Double R Bar]

I still think Carl Lewis should have anchored the U.S. team in 1996. Not sure if he could have won it, but had I been the coach, I would have had him anchor.

[Texas]

Canada's splits were:

Robert Esmie 10.47
Glenroy Gilbert 9.02
Bruny Surin 9.25
Donovan Bailey 8.95

37.69

US Splits were:

Jon Drummond 10.37
Tim Harden 9.36
Michael Marsh 9.27
Dennis Mitchell 9.05

38.05

Pretty obvious that Tim Harden was the MAIN reason the US lost.

I think a US team of

Jon Drummond
Michael Marsh
Dennis Mitchell
Carl Lewis

MIGHT have been able to pull out a win. Leroy Burrell was injured so he can't really be considered.

The fact that Burrell and Lewis didn't run was what I was getting at. Canada ran their "A" team. The USA didn't!

[Texas]

I still think Carl Lewis should have anchored the U.S. team in 1996. Not sure if he could have won it, but had I been the coach, I would have had him anchor.

With Lewis anchoring, ya can now move Marsh to second and let Mitchell have his third leg. A leg he excelled in. That would have changed everything.

[Justin Clouder]

Re: 1996 Oly 4x1..revisited

Can a team of 10.10 guys and Donovan Bailey beat them?

Not saying that a different US team couldn't/shouldn't have won, but this slightly underestimates the Canadian team. Surin was a sub-10 guy and 2nd in the WC in 95 and was an absolutely top-rank 100m man from 95-99. Esmie ran 10.10/-2.1 in 97, worth sub-10. Gilbert was a consistent 10.1x guy through the 90s. Their 96 SBs were not at the same level, but this was a great team. And 37.69 is a fantastic time.

38.05 is not, however, so I agree that the US should have been closer.

Justin

[Texas]

Re: 1996 Oly 4x1..revisited

Can a team of 10.10 guys and Donovan Bailey beat them?

Not saying that a different US team couldn't/shouldn't have won, but this slightly underestimates the Canadian team. Surin was a sub-10 guy and 2nd in the WC in 95 and was an absolutely top-rank 100m man from 95-99. Esmie ran 10.10/-2.1 in 97, worth sub-10. Gilbert was a consistent 10.1x guy through the 90s. Their 96 SBs were not at the same level, but this was a great team. And 37.69 is a fantastic time.

38.05 is not, however, so I agree that the US should have been closer.

Justin

Drummond did give the USA the lead. As we all know a healthy Leroy Burrell was by far a better second leg that Harden, so it's pretty safe to say he doesn't get spanked like Harden did. He keeps the lead and adds a little. In 96 Surin was not yet a sub10.00 guy. Mitchell was!!!! I see Mitchell adding at least a meter. Can Lewis the greatest 4x1 anchorman ever hold off Bailey? Barely!

[eldrick]

Re: 1996 Oly 4x1..revisited

In 96 Surin was not yet a sub10.00 guy

9.97 +1.3 Bruny Surin CAN 12.07.67 2 Montréal 15.07.1995

[Justin Clouder]

Re: 1996 Oly 4x1..revisited

Drummond did give the USA the lead. As we all know a healthy Leroy Burrell was by far a better second leg that Harden, so it's pretty safe to say he doesn't get spanked like Harden did. He keeps the lead and adds a little. In 96 Surin was not yet a sub10.00 guy. Mitchell was!!!! I see Mitchell adding at least a meter. Can Lewis the greatest 4x1 anchorman ever hold off Bailey? Barely!

As I said earlier, I don't disagree that a different/fitter US team should/could have won. However, to suggest that Surin would have lost a metre to Mitchell is just silly.

It is odd that you feel the need to put down the Canadian team to make your point. In fact you are saying that the US could have put together a team that could beat *even this great Canadian team*. You have not explained how such a poor Canadian team (as you describe it) could run such a stunning time. Is it not more impressive to think that the US could have beaten even this great performance than to argue that the Canadian team was Bailey and three muppets?

Justin

[Texas]

Re: 1996 Oly 4x1..revisited

Drummond did give the USA the lead. As we all know a healthy Leroy Burrell was by far a better second leg that Harden, so it's pretty safe to say he doesn't get spanked like Harden did. He keeps the lead and adds a little. In 96 Surin was not yet a sub10.00 guy. Mitchell was!!!! I see Mitchell adding at least a meter. Can Lewis the greatest 4x1 anchorman ever hold off Bailey? Barely!

As I said earlier, I don't disagree that a different/fitter US team should/could have won. However, to suggest that Surin would have lost a metre to Mitchell is just silly.

It is odd that you feel the need to put down the Canadian team to make your point. In fact you are saying that the US could have put together a team that could beat *even this great Canadian team*. You have not explained how such a poor Canadian team (as you describe it) could run such a stunning time. Is it not more impressive to think that the US could have beaten even this great performance than to argue that the Canadian team was Bailey and three muppets?

Justin

Ok let's break it down...

Drummond did handle Esmie. So we know that the US has a lead. A healthy Burrell had the rep as the greatest second leg ever. Does he get whipped by Glenroy Gilbert like Harden did? I seriously doubt that. Leroy Burrell vs Glenroy Gilbert? Relay or not who takes Gilbert? I see at least a meter there added to what Drummond gave.

Ok Dennis Mitchell vs Bruny Surin. In 96 Mitchell was by far the better sprinter. He was running 9.low while Surin was stuck in 10ville. We also know that like Burrell, Mitchell had the rep as being a great relayer, he owned that third leg. I think a meter is very realistic.

Yes Bailey was in the zone and Lewis would need at least three meters to hold him off. Bailey just misses nipping him at the tape.

I understand that the 100meters is not the 4x1. Yes I know about the French and similiar situations where the slower more precision team whipped up on the superior sprinters. I'm saying if "all things being equal". On each leg except anchor, the US had the faster "100m" man. So we did have the speed advantage. That can't be debated!

Where did I call anyone a muppet, or do anything other than give an legit accessment? In 96 Canada ran their best team. The US did not!

[Justin Clouder]

Texas, what point do you think you are trying to make? You are arguing in 99 different ways that the US team should / could have beaten the Canadian team.

I AGREE! You do not need to keep restating this. At no point have I tried to debate that the US team wasn't faster. At no point have I tried to debate that the US team in any of the configurations you list was not superior on paper.

All I am saying is that it is BETTER for your argument that the Canadian team be recognised as a fantastic quartet. IT IS NOT NECESSARY for your argument to play down the ability of the 4 Canadians as you are doing. Dismissing them as "3 10.10 guys and Donovan Bailey" is to wholly misrepresent them.

This is why your threads always turn into fights - it's not enough that people agree with you, they have to agree with you completely, for all the right reasons. You have no interest in any refinement, subtlety or context for your points. To restate - I AGREE WITH YOU, yet you are still arguing with me! FFS!

Justin