Long Jump GOAT [split]

[Kishan Gill]

Lewis was GOAT and you can argue till the cows come home but it isn't going to change that fact. Trust me.! :wink:

[kuha]

That's really a good point I hadn't really considered much before.

Doh! Kuha scores one on the OG expert! Nice shot, kuha!

Trust me. This falls squarely into the "Even a Blind Hog Finds a Few Acorns" category!

[Dietmar239]

Hands down Lewis is and will always be the long jump GOAT. Don't forget that Lewis is STILL the indoor long jump record holder. A record that has stood for over 23 years and will not be broken in the immediate future. It may not carry the stature of an outdoor mark, but it must count for something. I still feel that arguably his best jump was his record. Outdoor conditioning, a little bit of wind, and less fear of landing on the track and he would have bolted 30'. I don't care what anyone says, that's a jumper right there!

[tandfman]

Lewis's overall greatness rests--in some measure--on the fact that he was continually motivated to CHASE that "impossible" mark.

And, to his credit, he never tried to do it in Mexico City or anywhere else with comparable altitude. He always said he wanted to do it without the big A.

[kuha]

Lewis's overall greatness rests--in some measure--on the fact that he was continually motivated to CHASE that "impossible" mark.

And, to his credit, he never tried to do it in Mexico City or anywhere else with comparable altitude. He always said he wanted to do it without the big A.

Exactly. He must have had plenty of such opportunities (Sestriere, etc.) and never bothered to try to get it the "easy" way.

[Daisy]

I agree with Kuha, it's pointless to compare post 1983 athletes with those that went before. The motivations are/were so different. Anyone with the longevity of Oerter in the amateur era is mind boggling whereas now it is more understandable.

Nevertheless, to be at the top of your game for four Olympics, amateur or professional, is still a remarkable feat. It is one thing to have longevity but to the win gold in the same Olympic event four times is stunning. It's hard to argue against such excellence.

[bad hammy]

[quote=Per Andersen]

Beamon was world ranked four times:

1966 - 10th
1967 - 4th
1968 - 1st
1969 - 4th

Hardly GOAT-worthy, or even great . . .

But much better than you gave him credit for. No clue where you were in '68 but you obviously did not follow LJ.[/quote:3iiy98br]
The Mexico City jump was as fraudulent as the new HR record (although with no complicity on Beamon's part, obviously.) I never understood the deification of this jump.

[dj]

Varioius rambling thoughts:

Knock out the altitude-assisted marks and Lewis has three outdoor WRs. The only other multiple low-alt record setters of the IAAF era are Ralph Boston and . . . no one.

Yes, it's true that Lewis had the Beamon mark as his rabbit, but to Lewis's great credit, he refused the various opportunities to go to altitude to try to get the record.

Lewis is certainly helped by the professional era. But longevity in the long jump was not unheard of among Americans. Several jumpers in the pre-pro period had careers lasting at least 7 years in which they would have ranked among the top 10 in the world: DeHart Hubbard (7 years), Ed Gordon (12), Eulace Peacock (11), Boston (10), Arnie Robinson (8).

Boston, Ter-Ovanesyan and Greg Bell are helped (compared to their predecessors) by being in the first wave of jumpers to jump off solid-surface runways on a regular basis.

I see Beamon and Roger Maris as being somewhat comparable. In addition to the earmark moment, they each had a great season. In fact, Maris's back-up season ('60, disputed AL MVP) was stronger than any of Beamon's back-up seasons.

Both have clearly superior careers to Don Larsen and Johnny Vander Meer. (Vander Meer's second no-hitter can be thought of as a wind-aided mark: it came in 1938 in the first night game ever played at Ebbets Field, before the lighting was particularly good.)

[bad hammy]

The Mexico City jump was as fraudulent as the new HR record (although with no complicity on Beamon's part, obviously.) I never understood the deification of this jump.

And just to expound on this line of thought, none of the record sprint/jump marks from the altitude-aided ’68 OG should have been IAAF-ratified, along with any other altitude-aided marks before or since. Like the folks running baseball allowing PEDs from the 1980s onward, the IAAF has condoned aided marks for basically forever. They put a cap on wind aid, they should have a cap on altitude aid. Of course, this is the same group that put the seal of approval on 10.49 too, so I guess I’m expecting a bit too much.

[tandfman]

he does need the WR to be the GOAT, even if he wins 6 or 7 globals

even the King with 4 succesive golds coudn't be LJ GOAT because he never had the WR in his career

It just occurred to me that it is very ironic that eldrick, of all people, would make this comment. After all, isn't he the one who constantly asserts that things are not what they are--that is, that marks in the sprints and horizontal jumps are insignificant unless they are reduced to "basic" or some other measure of equivalency that takes things like wind and altitude into consideration?

I am sure that if we had all been around and on this message board in 1968, eldrick would have been the first to tell us what Beamon's jump (at 2200m+ of altitude with a +2.0 wind) was really worth, and it wouldn't have been 8.90m.

I don't think it's quite right for him now to be telling us that Carl Lewis was not the GOAT because he never beat Beamon's record. If you apply all the formulas that eldrick always insists on applying to make real marks theoretically more meaningful, you'd probably have concluded that Lewis did beat Beamon's record more than once.

[bad hammy]

he does need the WR to be the GOAT, even if he wins 6 or 7 globals

even the King with 4 succesive golds coudn't be LJ GOAT because he never had the WR in his career

It just occurred to me that it is very ironic that eldrick, of all people, would make this comment. After all, isn't he the one who constantly asserts that things are not what they are--that is, that marks in the sprints and horizontal jumps are insignificant unless they are reduced to "basic" or some other measure of equivalency that takes things like wind and altitude into consideration?

QFE!! :P :P :P :!:

[Conor Dary]

'Both have clearly superior careers to Don Larsen and Johnny Vander Meer. (Vander Meer's second no-hitter can be thought of as a wind-aided mark: it came in 1938 in the first night game ever played at Ebbets Field, before the lighting was particularly good.)'

I never knew that about Vander Meer's second no hitter. After 40 years of reading about it, it takes dj to show the 'light'.

[bad hammy]

Both have clearly superior careers to Don Larsen and Johnny Vander Meer. (Vander Meer's second no-hitter can be thought of as a wind-aided mark: it came in 1938 in the first night game ever played at Ebbets Field, before the lighting was particularly good.)

I never knew that about Vander Meer's second no hitter. After 40 years of reading about it, it takes dj to show the 'light'.

Interesting Vander Meer parallel with Beamon. Just as Beamon was a four-time world ranker, Vander Meer was a four-time All-Star. (And a bit unusual - he was a switch-hitting pitcher.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Vander_Meer

[eldrick]

he does need the WR to be the GOAT, even if he wins 6 or 7 globals

even the King with 4 succesive golds coudn't be LJ GOAT because he never had the WR in his career

It just occurred to me that ...

on a few occasions, he had the take-off speed & angle to bury the wr, but didn't capitalise on those :

http://www.iaaf.org/community/forums/Li ... icID=15781

unfortunately, for him, you can't take those numbers to the bank, so we have to go with 8.87/8.79 pre-tokyo

[jeremyp]

My vote is clearly with Carl. The WR was put out of reach for so long by the altitude jump, and he would have had the WR numerous times if Beamon's 8.90 was brought down to it's sea level equiv. of no more than 8.60. 4 Golds and 2 WC's is awesome. Even more awesome: 64 wins stretched out over ten seasons!!! He is nonpareil.