Best dual sport (track/football) athlete of all-time

[dj]

But Thorpe did just that [play baseball] and he did it at a time when baseball was arguably MORE competitive than it is today, and football nearly as competitive as it is today. Baseball was truly the american pass time and every kid in the country played it. To excel at pro baseball in the 20s was to have excelled on the greatest stage that existed.

I will grant many points about Thorpe in track and football, and even his basketball barnstorming. But we're getting carried away on his baseball abilities.

Baseball was the predominant American sport, but the game Thorpe played was open to a talent pool consisting of white Americans only. No integration, no internationalization.

As for Thorpe's abilities, he played six years in the major from 1913 to 1919, and in only one season did he appear in at least half of his team's games. Not coincidentally, that was in 1917, when WWI had depleted many rosters.

Even in that year, he averaged only three at-bats per game, which means the year he most frequently appeared he was still used often as a spot player and defensive substitution, his main contribution in his other five seasons. Only in 1918 and 1919 was he an above average hitter in the majors.

I have no firm evidence, but from comparing his stats to other second-line outfielders from his era my suspicion is that he made teams greatly because of name recognition and as a gate attraction.

This was by no means a star baseball player, and at a time when many players of major league ability didn't play in the majors (often going undiscovered or making more money playing in a lower league) his MLB career is more a curiosity than anything else.

[26mi235]

I think very highly of Thorpe... his accomplishments are amazing. But my main point is that I suspect that in 1912 the total # of people world wide training and competing in the Decathlon with any degree of seriousness was very small. Great that he won though.

On a similar vein, if Bob Mathias had been born in 1986 instead of 1930, do you think he could have made the 2004 Olympic team in the Decathlon ?

It is not only the people in 1912, but 1913, 1914, ..., 1930? His record was not broken for quite a while.

[bambam]

DJ - I conceded that Thorpe could not match Robinson in baseball. He was not a star in the major leagues. But he played in the major leagues for six years. Simply making the major leagues makes you a pretty darn good baseball player. It is true he did not play against black athletes. Was that his fault? As I recall, Thorpe was himself a minority.

As to his decathlon abilities, it is true that there were not a lot of people in the decathlon in 1912. But his score would have won a silver medal in 1948 at London - I know about the weather, and the depleted field because of WW2 and Heino Lipp not being there. But the advancement in scores and abilities from 1912 to 1948 is likely greater than from 1960 to 1996 - another 36 years. And to me Rafer Johnson is one of the two greatest decathletes ever in terms of pure ability. And Rafer's Rome mark would have placed him only 24th in Atlanta in 1996. And with better weather, and all the world's athletes there in 1952, Thorpe's 1912 mark still would have finished 8th.

And there is no valid comparison between Robinson and Thorpe in terms of football abilities, nor track & field abilities.

[cullman]

Nehemiah's football career was not a success.

Hayes, Carter and Matson are very worthy however. I give them 1, 3, 2, with Thorpe 4.

Although he retired prematurely from the NFL, Henry Carr had a better football career than Nehemiah.

Nehemiah doesn't belong in the top 10...much less the top 5. He's in the same catagory as Larry Burton, Frank Budd and Jimmy Hines with regards to football skills.

Curtis Dickey and Isaac Curtis would be in my top 10 and miles ahead of Skeets.

cman 8)

[slowcat]

Agree that OJ should be mentioned. Another very talented person, Terry Bradshaw, high school javelin record holder and a pretty talented QB. Also two old timers: Buddy Young, NCAA sprint champion at Illinois, and a great NFL back and receiver, and Al Blozis, indoor world record holder in the shot and outstanding lineman at Georgetown and the NY Giants , who died in WWII.

[unclezadok]

My first thought was Bob Hayes, and having read the knowledgable messages above, I would still say Bob Hayes.
By the way, who was the best track athlete-SWIMMER of all time??

And about Jackie Robinson--perhaps UNDERRATED as a baseball player. Maybe the greatest USA athlete of all time.

[bambam]

By the way, who was the best track athlete-SWIMMER of all time??

There have been 3 athletes compete in both sports at the Olympics but the last was in 1912 and none of them were anything outstanding in either sport at that level.

[paulthefan]

I will grant many points about Thorpe in track and football, and even his basketball barnstorming. But we're getting carried away on his baseball abilities.

Baseball was the predominant American sport, but the game Thorpe played was open to a talent pool consisting of white Americans only. No integration, no internationalization.

I dont know how much better the game would have been if it were integrated and internationalized. It is possible that it would have been no better. This is not to say that there were not greater athletes in the negro league and great talent abroad but the human gene pool is not so diverse across these categories as to make the difference you are hypothesizing especially in a game like baseball. Thorpe would have been a great in the negro league as well as in japan, the dominican republic or cuba.

We are in an era where we have a societal need to see astronomical effects from segregation. As wicked as it was for far more critical reasons than sport it likely did not make the profound difference on the quality of baseball as we would like to believe.

[dj]

DJ - I conceded that Thorpe could not match Robinson in baseball. He was not a star in the major leagues. But he played in the major leagues for six years. Simply making the major leagues makes you a pretty darn good baseball player. It is true he did not play against black athletes. Was that his fault? As I recall, Thorpe was himself a minority.

As to his decathlon abilities, it is true that there were not a lot of people in the decathlon in 1912. But his score would have won a silver medal in 1948 at London - I know about the weather, and the depleted field because of WW2 and Heino Lipp not being there. But the advancement in scores and abilities from 1912 to 1948 is likely greater than from 1960 to 1996 - another 36 years. And to me Rafer Johnson is one of the two greatest decathletes ever in terms of pure ability. And Rafer's Rome mark would have placed him only 24th in Atlanta in 1996. And with better weather, and all the world's athletes there in 1952, Thorpe's 1912 mark still would have finished 8th.

And there is no valid comparison between Robinson and Thorpe in terms of football abilities, nor track & field abilities.

I'll go back to the point I made about his baseball career, in which I prefaced it with, "I will grant many points about Thorpe in track and football, and even his basketball barnstorming. But we're getting carried away on his baseball abilities."

I give Thorpe full credit for being the clear better of the two in track and football.

It's the baseball points with which I'm quibbling. And while integration would not have added a lot to the talent pool in terms of the upper level of major league starters, it appears that it added enough that Thorpe might never have had an MLB career except as a sideshow.

The greater limits on the talent pool were the minor league salary structure, (often competitive with the major leagues, particularly for minor league stars who remained in the minors because their pay was as good or better as what they were going to make in the majors: see Gavvy Cravath), the somewhat haphazard manner of MLB scouting, and the predating of the minor league farm system which channeled talent into the majors.

I'll also go back to the point that his one season playing even half his team's games was the war-depleted season of 1917.

[bambam]

DJ - we're agreed on three points - 1) Thorpe was much better in football, 2) Thorpe was much better in track & Field, 3) Robinson was much better in baseball. So unless Robinson was much better in basketball, and this is the least well-known of the sports for both, Thorpe either surpasses Robinson in your category, or is at the least, his equal.

[dj]

By the way, who was the best track athlete-SWIMMER of all time??

Milt Campbell? National interscholastic champion in swimming.

Another high school great was Eddie Shields, who at one time held the national interscholastic record in the track mile at 4:23.6, and was also national interscholastic swim champion in the 50y and 200y.

World War I got Eddie Shields away from athletics, but his twin brother, Larry, went on to win Oly track gold in the 3000m team race in 1924.

[jamese1045]

Nehemiah's football career was not a success.

Hayes, Carter and Matson are very worthy however. I give them 1, 3, 2, with Thorpe 4.

Although he retired prematurely from the NFL, Henry Carr had a better football career than Nehemiah.

Nehemiah doesn't belong in the top 10...much less the top 5. He's in the same catagory as Larry Burton, Frank Budd and Jimmy Hines with regards to football skills.

Curtis Dickey and Isaac Curtis would be in my top 10 and miles ahead of Skeets.

cman 8)

Wasn't it H.Carr who outran a racing horse (or was it a trotter?) over 200 yds? There's another category for him.

[paulthefan]

By the way, who was the best track athlete-SWIMMER of all time??

Milt Campbell? National interscholastic champion in swimming.

\


Milt Campbell a close second to Thorpe... Nehemiah, not in their league.

[parkerrclay]

Carr vs Nehemiah

HENRY CARR

Defense
Year Age Tm Pos G GS Sk Int Yds TD Lng PD FF Fmb FR Yds TD Tkl Ast Sfty
1965 23 NYG LS 14 0 2 19 0 19 1 3 -8 0
1966 24 NYG RS 14 0 4 110 1 101 0 1 0 0
1967 25 NYG RCB 9 0 1 13 0 13
Career 37 0 7 142 1 101 1 4 -8 0

Kick & Punt Returns
Year Age Tm Pos G GS Ret Yds TD Lng Y/R Rt Yds TD Lng Y/Rt APYd
1965 23 NYG LS 14 0 4 13 0 17 3.3 13
Career 37 0 4 13 0 17 3.3 13

NEHEMIAH
Receiving
Year Age Tm Pos G GS Rec Yds Y/R TD Lng R/G Y/G Att Yds TD Lng Y/A Y/G A/G YScm RRTD Fmb
1982 23 SFO 8 3 8 161 20.1 1 55 1.0 20.1 1 -1 0 -1 -1.0 -0.1 0.1 160 1 0
1983 24 SFO 16 1 17 236 13.9 1 27 1.1 14.8 236 1 1
1984 25 SFO 16 0 18 357 19.8 2 59 1.1 22.3 357 2 0
Career 40 4 43 754 17.5 4 59 1.1 18.9 1 -1 0 0 -1.0 0.0 0.0 753 4 1

Neither were great. Both played 3 seasons..neither excelled. You could say Carr was a little better but I would say Skeets was a better track athlete. I stand by Skeets as a better dual sport athlete.

[cullman]

Re: Carr vs Nehemiah

Neither were great. Both played 3 seasons..neither excelled. You could say Carr was a little better but I would say Skeets was a better track athlete. I stand by Skeets as a better dual sport athlete.

Henry Carr was a starter for the Giants his three seasons and it was a surprise when he retired.

Nehemiah had a lot of trouble running routes and hanging on to the ball in game situations. He was about as much of a football player as the 49ers 4th round pick in 1960, Ray Norton.

Herschel Walker is another track/footballer to be considered.

cman