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  • your opinion/ IVY LEAGUE

    Who was greatest male TF athlete in IVY HISTORY?

  • #2
    Re: your opinion/ IVY LEAGUE

    off the top of my head I can only think of 2 Olympic Champions, Shorter of Yale and Carr of Penn. Shorter also got a silver, but Carr also set a WR in winning. So I will say Bill Carr of Penn.

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    • #3
      Re: your opinion/ IVY LEAGUE

      Just remembered Ted Meredith of Penn but I will stay with Carr.

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      • #4
        Re: your opinion/ IVY LEAGUE

        ..

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        • #5
          Re: your opinion/ IVY LEAGUE

          Meredith was a high schooler, not an Ivy Leaguer, when he won his Olympic honors (although he did set WRs as a collegian).

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          • #6
            Re: your opinion/ IVY LEAGUE

            There's more to greatness than Olympic golds.

            How about a guy with two Olympic bronzes, two-time NCAA champion (plus NCAA scorer in another event), two-time AAU champion (and twice second) and four ratified World Records?

            Of whom do I speak?

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            • #7
              Re: your opinion/ IVY LEAGUE

              >How about a guy with two Olympic bronzes, two-time NCAA champion (plus NCAA scorer in another event), two-time AAU champion (and twice second) and four ratified World Records? Of whom do I speak? <

              I assume you speak of Jim Fuchs of Yale.

              A complete lists of Ivy Leaguers with Olympic track and field medals appears at http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/documents/oly-track.asp

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              • #8
                Re: your opinion/ IVY LEAGUE

                >>How about a guy with two Olympic bronzes, two-time NCAA champion (plus NCAA
                >scorer in another event), two-time AAU champion (and twice second) and four
                >ratified World Records? Of whom do I speak? <

                I assume you speak of Jim
                >Fuchs of Yale.

                A complete lists of Ivy Leaguers with Olympic track and
                >field medals appears at http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/documents/oly-track.asp

                that's one 'way cool website !

                So am I the only one that says Carr ? Garry apparently says Fuchs.

                WSatch you started this what is your opinion.

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                • #9
                  Re: your opinion/ IVY LEAGUE

                  and I say Carr over Fuchs as Fuchs' WR's came at a "soft" time for WR's in that event, whereas Caar's record was of very high quality over a high quality opponent.

                  So it's still Carr then Shorter IMHO with Fuchs 3rd.

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                  • #10
                    Re: your opinion/ IVY LEAGUE

                    Frankly , not an expert on Carrs full career, but doubt it had the effect on US TF THAT FS. did.

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                    • #11
                      Re: your opinion/ IVY LEAGUE

                      I think it honestly depends on the scope of the question - in regards to just performance (after college too ?) or influence on the sport, or a combination of both . . .

                      I mean, honestly, Craig Masback of Princeton has had quite an impact on track, but perhaps not because of his racing. He was quite a miler in his day, but ran his best after his Tiger days.

                      straight up, ignoring the problem of different eras, its very tough to not look at Al Kraenzlein of Penn. 4 gold medals in 1 olympiad, only matched by Jesse Owens and Carl Lewis ever. World records in 3 events in multiple disciplines (hurdles [110 & 220] and long jump). Plus, his work with developing modern hurdle technique (he is credited with being one of the first if not THE first hurdler to use the trail leg model) has left a lasting influence on the sport. However, seeing how it was in 1900, its hard to believe that this was the pinnacle.

                      a quick glance at the Ivy records reveals that by IAAF Hungarian points in the running events the 1:44 by Trinity Gray was the best - but he ran that after graduating in a Euro Grand Prix race (how Brown considers it their record, that's another issue). Right behind him is Bruce Collins, a 2-Time NCAA champion (72 & 74)who ran 49.1h in the 400 hurdles, won the Penn Relays multiple times, and anchored 3 straight Penn Relays championship shuttle hurdle teams. He just missed the Olympics in 1972. Collins as the best ? The lack of Olympic experience tempers that argument.

                      A darkhorse is Pfitzinger of Cornell - a double Olympian and one of our best marathoners, as well as being a very active scientist of the sport.

                      Looking at the age of the Ivy records, it was for many years the triple jump with a monster jump by the Icelandic Olympian Viljalmur Einarrson (spelling may be off), worth a medal in 1956. However, since this mark was broken by Tuan Wreh when he hit 53-5 at the 2002 Heps, this leaves Wendell Mottley's 400. Mottley was an outstanding talent, and part of world record in the Commonwealth Games as well running a sensational 69.2 in the 600 yards indoors while at Yale. He may be the winner.

                      But it is very difficult to compete with Meredith. Ted Meredith wasn't just one of an elite group, he was a giant among boys in his day. Double gold medalist at 19, double world record holder while in college, 4 time IC4A (when IC4A was the championship) champion, and anchor of the famous 1915 Penn 4x400 that came close to the world record at Penn Relays. He was also one of the first to write a serious book on 400 and 800 training, complete with workout schedules.

                      Since 1916, only three people have held the Ivy record in the 400/440. Mottley, Meredith, and the athlete whose name I've used for my screen name for many years, William Carr.

                      It is unfortunate that Carr was unable to really show what he was capable of. Mercersburg Academy reveals on their website that he did not break 50 seconds in high school - he actually went to Penn as a long jumper. It wasn't until his junior year, 1932, that he seriously ran the 400 open race (he had done a bunch of relay duty along with jumping), and what a season he had. He defeated the world record holder, Ben Eastman 3 times in a row, won the IC4A, the Olympic Trials/USA Champs, and finally the Olympic Games in LA with the 46.28. His world record time is even more special considering that there were no rest days in the Olympics back in 32 - and I think the semis were the same day, it was 2 turns, and with no blocks (starts were dug in the cinder). He also anchored the first relay under 3:10 without the services of Eastman with a 46 split. Two golds, two world records, but unfortunately that was it. An auto accident in March of 1933 ended his career for the most part. If he had competed as a senior, and perhaps might have been the first under 46, this question would be a no brainer - but without it, well, he's really just a flash of lightning - its a really tough to call him the best. And we can't ask him about it; he passed away quite a long time ago.

                      Shorter's impact is so huge, and Fuchs was quite a talent. Shorter for running, Fuchs for throwing . . . .

                      now for the WOMEN, Lynn Jennings or Meredith Rainey-Valmon ?

                      --Josh Seeherman

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                      • #12
                        Re: your opinion/ IVY LEAGUE

                        In a related area, does anyone recall Calvin Hill's PR in the long jump at Yale? Been a long time since I heard (his Cowboy days), but I could swear he popped 26 feet and change.

                        Wasn't recent St. Alban's Headmaster Mark Mullin a strong miler at Harvard? Fritz Pollard was a great athlete at Brown.

                        Did Marty Glickman attend Columbia?

                        Bijan

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                        • #13
                          Re: your opinion/ IVY LEAGUE

                          what might be easier would be to make an "All-Ivy All-Time" squad with two per event . . . I'd start but sleep beckons . . . this would of course bring up Mottley or Carr as #1 in the 400 . . . . Meredith would have to be bumped to the 800 . . . .

                          and lest we forget, in XC, the Van Cortlandt Park collegiate record is still 23:51, 27 years old, held by an Ivy athlete (Dave Merrick of Penn) - although tied by Eric Carter of Penn State.

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                          • #14
                            Re: your opinion/ IVY LEAGUE

                            >Wasn't recent St. Alban's Headmaster Mark Mullin
                            a strong miler at Harvard? <

                            There was a strong miler by that name who ran for Harvard. I assume it's the same guy.


                            >Did Marty Glickman attend Columbia?<

                            I don't think so. I know he never competed for Columbia.

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                            • #15
                              Re: your opinion/ IVY LEAGUE

                              Well, having run XC and track for Brown, and even being an asst. coach there for a year, I must say that the Ivy performances I was and still am most in awe of were Wendell Mottley's 1:09.2 and Dave Merrick's 23:51. I'm not sure that awe qualifies one for being greatest of all time, but it does create a special feeling.

                              In Mottley's case, it wasn't so much that he ran it, but WHERE he ran it. As one who raced on that track, I always felt his time was unconscionable. You might as well set up two cones on a dirt field. OK, to make it more fair, you can cut the hay, clean up the cow pies, and plow it first.

                              As for Merrick, it's too bad he couldn't withstand the running. As I recall, T&FN ran an article entitled something to the effect "Dave Merrick's heart is willing but his legs are weak". Yeah, well, maybe they were weak but I was so far behind that guy that if he'd dropped out I think I could have caught up to him by now.

                              So now that I've thought about it, and with all due respect to the pre-WW II Olympians (Jesse Owens notwithstanding), athletics in those days just was not in the same competitive league. It's not until you see WRs last for a long time, with improvements in tiny increments of <0.5% or so, that you are approaching the limits of human performance. It takes lots of people, from all over the world, all with a good opportunity to take their shot at being the best, and that's when you find out who are the real greats. I think mens athletics as a whole achieved this in the 1950s / early 60s (the marathon lagged until the late 1970s), women in the late 1980's / early 90s (with the exception of new events like the vault and steeple, which have a way to go).

                              I vote for Mottley.

                              A close second for Richard Shelton of Yale, for winning gold in the 1900 Tug of War!! Boy, you know, it's too bad they didn't have synchronized swimming back then... ; )

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