Comparing Old Pole Vaulting Heights in Small Colleges

[larry-arrington]

Again, Thank

Again, I can't thank you guys enough for all of the research. These are the type of results I was looking for.

I really appreciate your help.



Larry

[tandfman]

OK, my turn.

"The Missouri Valley"

Big Seven - 13-5 3/4
Missouri Valley - 12-7
North Central - 11-9 1/2
Drake Relays - 14-3 3/4
Kansas Relay - 13-0

"The Southwest"

Southwest - 12-0
Border - 13-8
Lone Star - 12-6
NAIA - 13-6
Texas Relays - 13-6
Texas Relays College Div - 12-6
Southwest Recreation - 12-0
Southwest Recreation College Div - 12-6
Aggie Preview Relays - 13-5 1/4

"The Rocky Mountains"

Mountain States - 13-9
Eastern Div, Mountain States - 12-0A
Western Div, Moutnain States - 13-0
Rocky Mountain - 11-6A
Colorado Relays - 14-0A

"The Pacific Coast"

Pacific Coast - 14-2 3/4
Northern Div, Pacifi Coast - 14 1/2
CCAA - 13- 1/2
(This section also includes other competition open to, and won by, post-collegians.)

[gh]

"The Middle West"

Big 10 14-1 1/4
CCC 13-0
MAC 13-0
All-Ohio 13-6 7/8
Ohio COnference 12-8 1/8
Midwest 12-3
Interstate 11-4
Iowa 11-6
Big State 12-8
Illinois College 12-2 1/4

[larry-arrington]

Great Information

This is terrific information. The results from eastern and southern meets, does does look like the fellow's small-college pole vaulting height of 13'6" was pretty good in 1952.

Do you think these results from the east and south were pretty representative of what was happening in the rest of the country? Or were states like California more advanced?

Thanks again. I am definitely saving this information.


Larry

[gh]

"The South"

Southern 13-0
SEC 13-3
CIAA 11-6
Mason-Dixon 12-6
Gulf States 12-4
Ohio Valley 11-6

[dj]

Re: Another Thanks

Terrific information. This is exactly the type of data I was looking for. Just a couple of questions:

What is HEPS?
Ivy League + Army and Navy

Was the Penn State Teachers meet a conference meet?
yes, Pennsylvania State Teachers Colleges (what were formerly Normal Schools and were designed to educate future teachers)

What type of meet was Mets?
New York Metropolitan Intercollegiates (colleges/universities in the NYC metro area)

Sorry for what may be dumb questions, but in those days I didn't even know what a track meet looked like.

Larry

[larry-arrington]

Another Thanks

Terrific information. This is exactly the type of data I was looking for. Just a couple of questions:

What is HEPS?
Was the Penn State Teachers meet a conference meet?
What type of meet was Mets?

Sorry for what may be dumb questions, but in those days I didn't even know what a track meet looked like.

Larry

[gh]

"The East"

IC4A 13-3
Heps 14-0
New Englands 13-6
Eastern Intercollegiate 12-0
Yankee Conf. 13-0
Mets 13-2
Mid-Atlantic 12-6 3/4
Penn State Teachers 11-6
Penn Relays 13-0
Seton Hall Relays 13-2

[larry-arrington]

Thanks

Yes, I would be interested in knowing the winning pole vault heights for 1952 in some of the conference championship meets around the U. S. that had "small schools" participating.

In the Mason-Dixon Conference in those days (the conference Roanoke College was part of), I am guessing that the school enrollments ranged from a low of 500 to a high of 2,000-3,000. Some of the smaller schools would have been Roanoke College, Bridgewater College, Washington College, Randolph-Macon College, etc. Larger schools included American University, Johns Hopkins University, Catholic University, etc.

I don't suppose that the old copies of the guide could be found anywhere for sale. If not, that's a shame. There seemed to be a lot of information in the 1949 publication I saw.

Thanks very much for your help.

Larry

[tandfman]

I have the NCAA Guides for those years. I'll pull some information from them, probably over the weekend unless someone has time to do it sooner. Are you looking for results from the 1952 season? I believe they would be in the 1953 Guide. I've got it.

[larry-arrington]

Comparison of Small College Jumpers

I just found an old copy of the Official NCAA Guide: Track and Field - 1949. The book, among other things, gives the results of each conference in the nation for the 1949 season.

I wonder if anyone might have the book for 1952. That might be a good way to compare a 13'6" jump at Roanoke College with the heights that were jumped in other conferences around the U. S.that year.

Or should I ask the NCAA staff?

Thanks again for your help.

Larry

[dj]

Re: Thanks for Your Help

Also, small colleges in 1952, especially Roanoke, couldn't afford to send an individual athlete to national championships (I assume that there was a national championship for all small schools at that time).Larry

There was not a separate national meet for small colleges (other than junior colleges) until 1952 when the first NAIA track championships was held. The NCAA college division meet started in 1963. The NCAA later split that meet in two, with the Division III track championships starting in 1974.

The NAIA should not necessarily be construed as only a "small college" meet, as there were some large schools among the participants.

[larry-arrington]

Thanks for Your Help

I apologize for not posting for a while, especially since I asked the original question. I stopped getting the email notices that additional postings were waiting to be read.

Thanks very much for the information. I have always considered the 13'6" height to be exceptional in 1952-in particular since the vaulter attended a school of some 450 students at the time. I am a little irked at the College for not putting him into their Athletic Hall of Fame because I think he was an outstanding athlete. He vaulted in the old Washington Evening Star Games (and in Madison Square Garden) against people like Laz and Richards. Now he couldn't compete well with that group of 15-footers, but he wasn't very far behind them. Those were the days when bamboo poles were still being used by vaulters. And then came Swedish Steel poles, a bit better but nothing like what was used in later years. And the pits, especially at a small college, were just filled with sawdust. That must have hurt when you were falling from 13-15 feet. Also, small colleges in 1952, especially Roanoke, couldn't afford to send an individual athlete to national championships (I assume that there was a national championship for all small schools at that time).

I am re-assured by your responses. My trouble in trying to compare him with other jumpers from similar-size schools is that even if I could contact each of the many conferences in the country, most affiliations have changed. I know that Roanoke, for example, has been in a number of conferences over the years - and many of those conferences are no longer around. And there is a dearth of records from 50-60 years back.

Again, thanks. Hope to hear from more people in the next few days.

Larry

[dr ngo]

At the same time . . .

The NAIA in 1952 was won at 13'6" by a vaulter from Abilene Christian (where, as it happens, the meet was held). In 1953 the winning height (by a guy from Fort Hays State, Kansas) was 13'3"! The first vaulter over 14' in the championship meet seems to have been the aforementioned Bob Gutowski (Oxy) in 1956. All of which confirms that 13'6" was excellent by small college standards (as well as good by "national" standards, as per GH).

On a related topic, given the costs of transportation and the low revenues from track, it seems likely that many "small college" athletes would have competed in the NAIA rather than the NCAA, but not both unless (1) they were exceptionally good [likely to win], and/or (2) the NCAA meet was close to home. So the absence of small college athletes from among NCAA medallists is not necessarily indicative of their insignificance.

As for Oxy being a "special case" in track in the 1950s-60s: yes, it certainly was! Actually beat Stanford and UCLA in track sometimes; even competitive with powerhouse USC. (And won the NAIA three times in a row, 1956-58.) But the fact remains that it was a small college (ca. 1400 students), with no athletic scholarships as such, and to that extent falls within the purview of the original question, I feel. ("A small Christian college for very small Christians," we called it.) It seems, from my hardly unbiassed perspective, a shame that no small college can reasonably aspire to such competitiveness nowadays.

[tandfman]

In 1952, 13-9 was the winning height in the NCAA Championships and 13-6 got you a tie for 6th. None of the vaulters who cleared those heights were from small schools.