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An old timer who is an aquaintance of mine keeps insisting that if John Carlos had opted to run the 100m as well in 1968 that he would have whipped Jim Hines. Was Carlos that good at 100m. What was his record like ?
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Carlos was that good at 100m, but not in 1968. By the following year, he was the best in the world. -
In a Meet in Victoria, B.C., September 1968, about 3 weeks before the Mexico Olympics, Carlos beat Lennox Miller of Jamaica in both the 100 and the 200 metres. Then a bit later the same afternoon, Carlos ran the 3rd leg for the USA "B" team, and out-ran Ronnie Ray Smith (USA "A" team) by about 2 metres on the turn. And then passed off to Tommie Smith, who ran down Jimmie Hines by about another 2 metres, before flinging the baton about 30 metres into the air in jubilation, in front of an awe-struck crowd of 5,500 fans.
Lennox Miller won the Mexico City Silver behind Hines in the 100 m., and Ronnie Ray Smith was the co-World Record Holder in the 100m., and Carlos was clearly faster than both of them on that day. Whether he could have won over Hines at 100 m., we'll never know, but if it was about 120 m., Tommie Smith would have gunned them all down.
Carlos claimed later that American Coach Stan Wright had promised a runoff for the USA 4 x 100 Olympic Team, if the "B" team won that day, but
the runoff never took place.Comment
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No way Carlos beats Hines at Mexico City. But Tommie should have been on both relays instead of being thrown out of the country.Comment
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Carlos was not ranked in the top ten in the World in 1968 (and was ranked only #9 in the US), but was world ranked #1 in both 1969 and 1970.Comment
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Maybe Coach Wright told them the wrong time for the runoff?Originally posted by rasb
(Sorry, it was just too easy to pass up.)Comment
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I'm sure many of us have read the article in the new SI about Carlos.
His assertion, not recently made, but rather a few years ago, that " I let Smith win" seems ludicrous, and it sure earned him Smith's emnity, well justified imo.Comment
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IMHO, John Carlos, a bit like Wilt Chamberlain, was an absolutely superb athlete and a dynamic personality who also made a huge impact on American culture in the 1960's.
And like Wilt, his own evaluation of his talents and accomplishments is not particularly credible.Comment
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There's no question that he "gave up" when he saw he couldn't win though, and Peter Norman will be eternally grateful for that.Originally posted by dukehjsteveComment
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But that's a horse of a different color, no double meaning intended !Originally posted by ghComment
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We have been through this one a few times and some of us can't see that Carlos was anything but dieing a sprinters death in that last 40m. Let me recap what some might see; Norman beats Carlos in that final because Carlos ran out of gas. A full analysis of all the rounds might also suggest that the young Carlos lost his edge when he burnt the track up in that semi, one of the greatest 200 rounds ever run in an olympics. By the last 50m of the final he was pouring it on but nothing was coming out, the sprinter equivalent of the post-terminal stage of a supernova.Originally posted by gh
Regarding the 100m anything is possible and a medal would have been possible for Carlos, the way he ran that first 100m in the 200m final was scary. On the other hand goodness everytime I watch that 1968 100m race I see Hines to be as good as they get.... nothing really ever changes my friend, new lines for old, new lines for old.Comment
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Another thing to bear in mind about Carlos, is that in 1969/1970 he didn't have a healthy Tommie Smith to worry about (Smith ran in the King Games in '69 but that was it). Jim Hines had made his disastrous foray into the NFL (9 flat speed, 12 flat hands), and Charlie Greene ran infrequently and injured in '69. A better question might have been - would a healthy Charlie Greene have beaten Hines in '68.[Answer - possibly - Greene was 3-2 up on Hines until Mexico, not counting another win where Hines was disqualified for false starts].
Carlos was splendid in '69 particularly - crushing the opposition - but his opponents weren't great in '69. In '68 Carlos had his chance - but only placed 5th in his heat at the AAU in 10.2wComment
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I can only add that on Sept. 28th, 1968, John Carlos and Tommie Smith ran down Ronnie Ray Smith and Jimmie Hines by at least 4 metres over the last 2 legs of the 4 x 100 m. Charlie Greene and Mel Pender had built up that 4 metre lead over the first 2 legs against Charlie Mays and Larry Questad.
And if Carlos is correct, then that relay race was very important to all runners, as a possible runoff was in the cards. It certainly seemed as though there was a lot on the line, pride at the very least. I also heard there was a little wagering on the outcome, just friendly betting I am sure. Interested spectators included Lee Evans, Vince Matthews, Ron Freeman, Larry James, who ran a totally solo 3:01 warmup in the 4 x 400 that day.
There is no doubt that Tommie's top end speed was the best in the World at that time. My only question would be whether Carlos or Hines had the next best top end. I think it would be very close.Comment
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Having seen Tommie Smith run many times, my bias is that in that era (and maybe any era) there is nobody that Smith could not have run down on a short relay on an anchor leg, with the possible exception of Bob Hayes.Comment
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I would love to have seen...
Charlie Greene
Jimmy Hines
John Carlos
Tommie Smith
....on that 68 4x1 team.
Carlos came on later in the shorter sprint. A 9.1 man in the yards. I do think at his best he was faster than Hines, just not in 68. If Smith had wanted to run the 100 he would have been ...wow!!!!!!Comment
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