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  • #16
    Re: Carl Lewis 30ft Long Jump

    >I once saw Tom Tellez at a clinic speaking on the LJ. He showed many clips of
    >Carl Lewis. He showed one particular clip in which Lewis, at mid flight, was
    >approx. 18" higher than his norm. Tellez showed this jump superimposed on the
    >screen against other 28'+ jumps. This was 'obviously' going to be 30+. Carl
    >got frightened and described it as 'feeling out of control' and bailed on the
    >jump making it a glorified run-through, landing upright and running out the
    >back of the pit

    let's see if this really was the case of the hooked 30ft Great White which got away after the line broke

    suppose King's "average" jump is 8.50 & his variation in angle is usually 18 - 22 degrees (accepted range by coaches,etc)

    for an 8.50m jump with 18 deg. -> speed of 9.88m/s with high point of 1.73m.
    now he was supposedly 18" (45cm) higher.this means we have to find jump with speed of 9.88m/s & higher angle which produces a high point of 1.73 + 0.45m = 2.18m

    after trial & error inputting in link: we get an angle of 25.6 degrees & distance of 9.82m or 32'2" !!!


    this is obviously not realistic,so lets try the other end & his normal 8.50 jump with 22 degrees:
    this indicates speed of 9.38m/s & max. ht. of 1.88m.
    now add our 18" (45cm) to this,we get ht. of 2.33m or 7'8" !!(no wonder he bailed out,a world class HJ'er would have been proud of that !)
    so we need to find a jump with speed of 9.38m/s & ht. of 2.33m:

    after trial & error,we have jump with angle 29.4 degrees & distance:

    9.47m or 31' 3/4" !!

    this would be more like it.

    so if this story was true,he was probably on for a jump around the 31' mark ( still sounds to me like the 30ft Great White that got away)

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Carl Lewis 30ft Long Jump

      eldrick, Thanks for the analysis. We have to take Tellez at his word to decifer some of this. The 18" was my observation, so an estimate. Tellez said the jump was being compared on screen to an 'average' Lewis jump. If honest, I would guess that to be a 27' effort. If it was compared to a 24' jump, then all calculations are out the window. Thanks again. I've wondered since seeing this presentation it's validity and if the 'magical runthrough' was legit or an unitentional hoax. You've helped.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Carl Lewis 30ft Long Jump

        >eldrick, Thanks for the analysis. We have to take Tellez at his word to
        >decifer some of this. The 18" was my observation, so an estimate. Tellez
        >said the jump was being compared on screen to an 'average' Lewis jump. If
        >honest, I would guess that to be a 27' effort. If it was compared to a 24'
        >jump, then all calculations are out the window. Thanks again. I've wondered
        >since seeing this presentation it's validity and if the 'magical runthrough'
        >was legit or an unitentional hoax. You've helped.


        buckeye,your right.

        i think i used too high a figure for his "average" jump. 8.50m (27' 10.5") is a bit too far

        i'll redo the calcs. with a figure of 27' (8.23m) later when i get some time

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Carl Lewis 30ft Long Jump

          buckeye,your right.

          i think i used too high a figure for his
          >"average" jump. 8.50m (27' 10.5") is a bit too far

          i'll redo the calcs.
          >with a figure of 27' (8.23m) later when i get some time


          if we use 27' (8.23m) as his "average" & same method as before - determining a speed for angles of 18 - 22 degrees

          for 18 degrees & 8.23m, initial height of 1.25m (centre of mass) -> speed of 9.67m/s & max. ht. of 1.71m
          adding 45cm to max. height is 2.16m.keeping speed same at 9.67m/s,the LJ with this speed & max. ht. of 2.16m is found with angle of ... 25.9 degrees ->

          9.52m or 31' 2"

          this is too high,so let's try other end of range: 8.23m with angle of 22 degrees -> speed of 9.19m/s with max. ht. of 1.85m.
          add 45cm to this -> 2.30m (or 7' 6.5") :still immensely high & frightening.

          the LJ implied from this with same speed of 9.19m/s & max. ht of 2.30m occurs at angle...29.6 degrees ->

          9.17m or 30' 1"

          this figure is a bit more like it & close to tellez's prediction for the jump at 30' 6" (i think the angle of the actual jump will be ~ 19 degrees,but,i was just looking for a range)

          King was well capable of this distance,but needed to achieve it with faster speeds & shallower angles: slowish speed & high angle producing a high point of about 7'6" is too frightening for any LJ'er.

          here is analysis of some big jumps:


          http://www.iaaf.org/community/forums/Li ... icID=15781


          (i'm still looking for data on powell's WR jump)

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Carl Lewis 30ft Long Jump

            I'm sure all this analysis is completely pointless if you ignore air-resistance but what the hey...

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Carl Lewis 30ft Long Jump

              >I'm sure all this analysis is completely pointless if you ignore air-resistance
              >but what the hey...

              true.

              but consider, nearly all these jumps have +ve winds behind them( very few big jumps in history have a -ve)wind. this will assist the jump,whilst air resistance will oppose it.
              seeing as the jumps could have winds of between 0 to 2m/s helping (wind upto 7.9 mph),i'm pretty sure a wind approaching that speed will cancel out the opposing effects of air-resistance,leaving the projectile analysis as a fair estimate

              as a side note,can we even fairly compare a jump with maximum wind with that in still air?

              which would be intrinsically further 8.50m (0m/s) or 8.60m (+2m/s)?

              there is so much variation in the legal assisting wind,that i doubt air-resistance will be anywhere near as significant

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Carl Lewis 30ft Long Jump

                According to Athletics Weekly from March 1997 Powell's speed at take-off was 10.94m/sec whereas Lewis' speed on his best jump that day was 11.26m/sec. Hope this is helpful to you.

                One of my favourite jumps of all time was Ivan Pedroso's 8.55m from Sydney, when he was trailing in the last round. This has to be the slowest clearance of 8.50m in history. Everytime I see it replayed I think he's going to blow it but he never does. When I saw on the replay that the speed was only 35.2km/h (9.77m/s) this added to my amazement. I couldn't understand how he had jumped so far when he was basically jogging. His other jumps had been around the 38km/h mark, 38.2 (10.61m/s) being the fastest. Jai Taurima's best jump of the day, 8.49m, had a take-off speed of 41.2km/h (11.44m/s), no contest. Some of the jumps in the women's competition were faster then Pedroso's, particularly Marion Jones. I don't have the figures unfortunately.
                Personally I think that many jumpers run too fast at the board to be able to hold an efficient technique together. Discuss.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Carl Lewis 30ft Long Jump

                  thanks fez.

                  unfortunately for us,the actual speed at take-off is always slower as the jumper fractionally slows to accomodate the board,so we need that actual speed at the board & an angle

                  as for running too fast to hold the technique - you're right

                  in those jumps i posted on IAAF,King's slower jumps in the 8.50 - 8.60m range are almost exactly that predicted by the projectile link,but his quick jumps (seoul & tokyo) come out at theoretically in the 9.10 - 9.20m range,whereas the actual distance measured from take-off were "only" ~ 8.90m.i would hazard a guess that at faster speeds,he lost technique which accounted for 20 - 30cm of distance (with a contribution from air-resistance included of course!)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Carl Lewis 30ft Long Jump

                    Ah. Now I see where your coming from. Most LJ statistics I find tend to quote speed at take-off rather then speed immediately afterwards. For these purposes you really need the latter, but with both you can see who is effecting the most efficient take-off, minimizing loss of speed. Hopefully the Athens TV coverage will be able to convey more of this sort of information then previous games, they're certainly getting better at it.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Carl Lewis 30ft Long Jump

                      >According to Athletics Weekly from March 1997 Powell's speed at take-off was
                      >10.94m/sec whereas Lewis' speed on his best jump that day was 11.26m/sec. Hope
                      >this is helpful to you.



                      Fez,
                      you're mixing speed at take-off and run-up speeds.

                      The speeds (in m/s) for Mike Powell and Carl Lewis in Tokyo'91 were:
                      11-6m to the board / 6-1m to the board / horizontal speed at touch-down / horiz. speed at take-off / vert. speed at t-o
                      Mike POWELL 8.95m
                      10.79 / 10.94 / 11.00 / 9.09 / 3.70
                      Carl LEWIS 8.91m
                      11.23 / 11.26 / 11.06 / 9.72 / 3.22

                      The speed given in TV screen during Sydney Games are quite unreliable, as we don't know what section of the run-up the mentioned speed is for. Also, i don't think all these jumpers were faster than Lewis in run-up! Taurima 11.44 LOL.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Carl Lewis 30ft Long Jump

                        This is what I mean. We're having some terminology problems. So, when you say speed AT take-off, you mean speed immediately after the athlete has left the board, am I right? Whereas I always thought that speed at take-off was what you call speed at touch-down. I think I'm rapidly failing to clear any of this up, perhaps I'll bail out now if you don't mind.

                        It's true that I have no way of verifying the Sydney speeds but the Pedroso jump did look particularly slow even before I saw the speed reading, and the Taurima jump did look particularly fast, the TV commentator even remarked on it.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Carl Lewis 30ft Long Jump

                          Fez,
                          you're mixing speed at take-off
                          >and run-up speeds.

                          The speeds (in m/s) for Mike Powell and Carl Lewis in
                          >Tokyo'91 were:
                          11-6m to the board / 6-1m to the board / horizontal speed at
                          >touch-down / horiz. speed at take-off / vert. speed at t-o
                          Mike POWELL
                          >8.95m
                          10.79 / 10.94 / 11.00 / 9.09 / 3.70

                          finally powell's figures: combined speed was 9.81m/s (you do pythagoras on 9.09 & 3.70),his angle was arctan 3.7/9.09 = 22.14 degrees !! no wonder it was the WR,that's the biggest angle we've seen! assume ht. was 1.25m (same ht. as King) & his predicted jump comes out at:

                          9.15m !

                          to be honest with you PJ,you may have to use a slightly lower ht. of COM for him,because,in order to jump 22 degrees+,you will have to sink those hips down a lot more at the take-off: however even a ht. of 1.2m gives a jump of 9.07m

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Carl Lewis 30ft Long Jump

                            Eldrick,

                            I think the centre of mass of 1.25 is a little bit to much. I thought centre of mass was about 0.6180 times height. so in Lewis case around 1.16

                            Bye the way do you have some data of Pedroso jumps?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Carl Lewis 30ft Long Jump

                              >Eldrick,

                              I think the centre of mass of 1.25 is a little bit to much. I
                              >thought centre of mass was about 0.6180 times height. so in Lewis case around
                              >1.16

                              >Bye the way do you have some data of Pedroso jumps?

                              PJ from his data showed that the women LJ'ers in LA had COM of between 1.16 - 1.26m & the tallest of those girls was 1.79m (this is from research data he has). in beamon's WR,his COM was given as 1.25m.
                              seeing as King is taller than any of those girls (at 1.88m) & almost exactly beamon's height, i thought 1.25m was a reasonable figure to work with (also lamela a 1.78m guy was listed as having COM of 1.20m in separate data)

                              PJ i'm sure will have data on pedroso's jump - hopefully he'll post it later

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Carl Lewis 30ft Long Jump

                                >Eldrick,

                                I think the centre of mass of 1.25 is a little bit to much. I
                                >thought centre of mass was about 0.6180 times height. so in Lewis case around
                                >1.16
                                Bye the way do you have some data of Pedroso jumps?




                                Don't forget
                                that the height of center of mass at take-off is higher than when you're simply standing. At take-off, the foot is completely extended.
                                I will look later to Pedroso data i have.

                                Comment

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