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  • #16
    Originally posted by FrankS
    As I've said previously, simply(!) winning more medals and setting fastest times at 100 and 200m won't do the trick; he's got to go for the 400m. Of course, going for the 400m is a gamble and it also means a lot of hard work. Lasse Viren did the "double double" in the 5k/10k but that didn't elevate him to the top of the greatest runner of all-time table BUT, had he won the marathon in 1976, then his claim for the greatest of all-time would have been greatly enhanced. To jump over all the other contenders Usain must do something unique, and 400m offers him that.
    I do not see uniqueness as a GOAT criterion in general: Merely duplicating
    what the previous GOAT did, but slightly better, would be enough---as would a
    number of equivalent variations. If each new GOAT must do something unique,
    runners of old would have an unfair advantage.

    One might even argue that the need for something unique should be reduced
    over time, due to increasing competition, lesser chance at doubling
    succesfully, etc. I would, for instance, say that Lewis' 1988 and Bolt's 2008
    medal sets were superior to Owens' in 1936---with Lewis' 1984 far ahead of
    Owens, although nominally the same.

    Comment


    • #17
      However, to be the first to achieve something is important. Zatopeks main claim to fame is surely based on is unique 5k/10k/marathon effort. The fact that no athlete has ever(?) held the 100m/200m/400m record simultaneously will ensure that the first athlete to do it will indeed be hard to ignore as the greatest. What else would be comparable? 800m/1500m/5000m? 5k/10k/marathon. Of course, Geb has held all of the last three but not at the same time, and I think most fans think that it is achieveable but .... the 100m/200m/400m. That would be magic!!

      Comment


      • #18
        Doing something unique is a very strong pro-argument---and I should certainly
        have said ``necessary criterion'' above. As is, I miss the point I was trying
        to make, namely that a 400m WR, three straight Olympic titles in the 100m, a
        title repeat in the 200m, or something else previously unaccomplished, is not
        _necessary_ to become GOAT. Achieving something new on this scale will
        definitely help, however.

        Sorry about the unfortunate formulation.

        BTW, I suspect that the 800/1500/5000 combination would be the most magical
        of the three.

        Comment


        • #19
          Any one of the following on top of what he's already done = GOAT:

          Sub 9.6 = GOAT
          Sub 19.1 = GOAT
          Repeat the 100/200 double in London = GOAT
          Threepeat the 100 or 200 Olympic gold = GOAT
          400m gold in London = GOAT
          400m WR = GOAT

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by imaginative
            Doing something unique is a very strong pro-argument---and I should certainly
            have said ``necessary criterion'' above. As is, I miss the point I was trying
            to make, namely that a 400m WR, three straight Olympic titles in the 100m, a
            title repeat in the 200m, or something else previously unaccomplished, is not
            _necessary_ to become GOAT. Achieving something new on this scale will
            definitely help, however.

            Sorry about the unfortunate formulation.

            BTW, I suspect that the 800/1500/5000 combination would be the most magical
            of the three.
            Who would one rate as best 800/1500/5000 person of all time? Aouita?

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by catson52
              Who would one rate as best 800/1500/5000 person of all time? Aouita?
              in hindsight, hicham couda done it in '00 if timetable allowed it & he hadn't messed up the 1500

              he couda outkicked wolde on one leg in the final & the german in the 800 was only a 1'44-guy - hicham musta been close to 1'43-flat shape that meet

              to be honest, he couda also done the treble in '04 - borza's win wasn't awe-inspiring & it wouda been just a question of unleashing his kick at the right time

              imagine back to back 800/1500/5k trebles !!! :shock:

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by eldrick
                Originally posted by catson52
                Who would one rate as best 800/1500/5000 person of all time? Aouita?
                in hindsight, hicham couda done it in '00 if timetable allowed it & he hadn't messed up the 1500

                he couda outkicked wolde on one leg in the final & the german in the 800 was only a 1'44-guy - hicham musta been close to 1'43-flat shape that meet

                to be honest, he couda also done the treble in '04 - borza's win wasn't awe-inspiring & it wouda been just a question of unleashing his kick at the right time

                imagine back to back 800/1500/5k trebles !!! :shock:
                Too many would & coulda for my taste. Even if he tried to compete in all three races there is no way he would still be a hundred percent or at this best during the last event. You can't fully recover from seven or eight rounds in ten days even if you don't have to spend much energy in the heats.

                Comment


                • #23
                  we'll never know, but this guy used to run 3'26/3'27 week in/week out on the circuit

                  if you can run 3'26/3'27 one day & do it again 1/52 later, it means his recuperative powers were bordering on the incredible

                  somehow, if that 3'26/3'27 in 1/52 time was substituted for 2 prelims of 1'46 & 1'45 followed by a low-1'43 final, i think that woud take no more out of him than a 3'26/3'27

                  the 5k prelim woud have to be treated as a training jog with a last lap sprint

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Croflash, you:re right. It is bullshit on the 3.26/3.27 week-in and week-out. El Guerrouj only ran under 3.28 in the same season once (on three occasions in 2002...roughly four weeks and three weeks between those times, respectively).

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      i see you are still firing on all 1 1/2 cylinders

                      3:43.13 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1 Roma 07.07.1999

                      3:27.65 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1 Sevilla 24.08.1999

                      7:23.09 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1 Bruxelles 03.09.1999

                      4:44.79 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1 Berlin 07.09.1999

                      look at last 3 & convert last 2 to 1500 times using iaaf tables

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I CANNOT believe (much as I want to) that Bolt will have a long and fruitful career like Linford or King Carl or even Mo. He's done too much too soon! His OG was more than a career! If he wins the WC next year in near-WR times (and why shouldn't he?), I'm afraid I will have to do the unthinkable and take the GOAT mantle off Bullet Bob (sorry, Carl, you may be everyone else's GOAT, but not mine) and place it on young Master Usain's shoulders.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Marlow
                          I CANNOT believe (much as I want to) that Bolt will have a long and fruitful career like Linford or King Carl or even Mo. He's done too much too soon! His OG was more than a career! If he wins the WC next year in near-WR times (and why shouldn't he?), I'm afraid I will have to do the unthinkable and take the GOAT mantle off Bullet Bob (sorry, Carl, you may be everyone else's GOAT, but not mine) and place it on young Master Usain's shoulders.
                          agreed. Triple gold, triple wr. Clearly the greatest single oly sprint accomplishment since Jesse. The facts are the facts.
                          ... nothing really ever changes my friend, new lines for old, new lines for old.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Marlow, I believe Bolt will space things out and not commit to too many circuit races the next few years. The money is in the bank, and more of it is on the way via sponsors. Resisting the urge to please everyone (meet organiser) can garner more money in the long (and short) run than picking up appearance fees and meet record bonuses every time he steps on the track. He:ll be around for the long run. His trainer believes Bolt will reach a 100m peak in two years.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Regarding El Guerrouj: he didn:t run 3.26-3.27 week-in and week-out. His body did not run the average of 13,73-13,80 seconds/100m over the entire distance of either 2.000m (14,24/56,96) or 3.000m (14,77/59,08) no matter what a conversion table states.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                err...

                                he ran 4'44wr & 7'23 ( 2nd fastest ever ) off crap pacing

                                he ran 3'27, then 10 days later 7'23 & then 4'44 a further 4 days later !

                                average that out that's better than week-in/week out - that's 3 performances of 3'26/3'27 points each week for 3 consecutive weeks

                                he already had 1500/mile wr & nothing more to mine there for rest of the season & wanted all the records

                                woud anyone in their sane mind believe that if he'd lined up for a 1500 instead of 2k/3k in the form exhibited over 3k & 2k that he woudn't have gone 3'26/3'27 ?!

                                actually, scrub that question - there cannot be anyone that stoopid on this board that they woud even question his ability to do it

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