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why no love for Soto?

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  • #16
    Sorry, but if someone has tested positive twice, all of his credibility is gone.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by gh
      Not in these forums it's not.

      Although T&FN has long held to a policy of bouncing the whole calendar year of marks when somebody has a positive. Hence while Randy Barnes is the WR holder in the shot, he's not atop the T&FN all-time list, because later that same year he had his positive.
      GH, does your post answer my post or Eldrick's? Both are possible from
      context, and the implications are very different.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by croflash
        Sorry, but if someone has tested positive twice, all of his credibility is gone.
        agreed but cocaine and nadrolone are hardly THG
        i deserve extra credit

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Diego SahagĂșn
          I vote for the shorts: Austin, Conway, Holm, Matei.. :wink: I know there are shortest but I like those...

          Aside his doping caughts I see Soto as one of the best HJers ever. I've couldn't see Brumel.

          As for the women, Kostadinova and Balas were great
          Well, if you couldn't see Brumel and thus rank him, how do you then rank Balas, who goes back even further? But those two are the HJ GOATs to me. Although Kostadinova was quite good.

          Comment


          • #20
            Kevin, thanks for the concern. The article was not my opinion but one of a very respected person in the sport. I was quoting someone else and, yes, the article has been found elsewhere online. I will defend the post by stating that Soto was found guilty of nandrolone. In my opinion, if you were caught once then it taints your entire career. It shows that you are willing to cheat and the burden of proof should be on the athlete to prove that he did not cheat when the record/performances were done. By this same standard, I think Barnes's wr should be disallowed.

            Comment


            • #21
              Consider the fact that Soto failed his drug test in 2001, when he was more or less retired. He set his last WR in 1993. After 2000 he was practically finished. Who knows, maybe it was a last desperate attempt at glory.
              It does not automatically follow that he doped when he was in his prime.

              Similar story with Linford Christie who also got caught when he was just about retired.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by bambam1729
                Originally posted by Diego SahagĂșn
                I vote for the shorts: Austin, Conway, Holm, Matei.. :wink: I know there are shortest but I like those...

                Aside his doping caughts I see Soto as one of the best HJers ever. I've couldn't see Brumel.

                As for the women, Kostadinova and Balas were great
                Although Kostadinova was quite good.
                quite good :shock: :shock: :? :?

                i really couldn't comment on brumel but Balas is so much the GOAt that no-one else is worth considering. in fact she could very well be the GOAT of GOATS
                i deserve extra credit

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by mump boy
                  i really couldn't comment on brumel but Balas is so much the GOAt that no-one else is worth considering. in fact she could very well be the GOAT of GOATS
                  She would indeed be a strong candidate for a ``one event GOAT''; however,
                  at least JJK and CL have combined similar domination of one event with WRs
                  and/or OG/WC golds in other disciplines, and therefore are clearly ahead,
                  IMO.

                  (As for best high jumper of all times, any sex, Balas is a clear number one.)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    this is when i'd pull tex's argument

                    she won 2 golds & long winning streak & wr held up for 10y, but what woud she be worth if she was competing today ?

                    her wr was 1.91 & with better surface run-ups & technique, maybe 2.00, but i doubt very much anything much more

                    i'd have to go with kosta, as her wr is now 21y ole & still going & undoubtedly the standard of competition was much higher in last 20y than it was in balas' time

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      True, but Balas was a scissor jumper. I am not aware of any current
                      (unofficial) scissors record; however, I once did the following
                      thought-experiment:

                      Some of the best modern men have scissored in the mid-to-high 2.1x. It seems
                      resonable to assume that if scissoring had remained the main technique, then
                      the current WR would be in the low 2.2x---call it 2.22. Scaling this by
                      209/245 gives a hypothetical scissors WR of 1.89 for the women. Correctly
                      factoring in COM would probably increase this number; however, her 1.91 is
                      probably worth more than e.g. Brumel's 2.28. In a scissors world, Balas would
                      still be a WR candidate; Brumel is already beaten by 7 cm in the straddle,
                      and might have been more than 10 cm behind, had we still lived in a straddle
                      world.

                      In another comparison, Soto is 17 cm (~7.5 %) above Brumel, Kosta 18 cm
                      (~9.4 %) above Balas. Considering the technique differences, I would again
                      see Balas as better than Brumel.

                      After having established that Balas results were of extremely high quality
                      even by modern standards (after adjusting for technique), I do not see Kosta
                      ahead.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        i'd be surprised if 2.40 guys woud only scissor something like 2.15 or somesuch, if they used that as prime technique thruout their career

                        i think some of the ex-hj'ers here said difference between flop & straddle is something something like 3 - 4cm & possibly another 2 - 3cm between that & scissors, so we are talking more like 5 - 7cm, not 25cm

                        5 - 7cm for a 2.40 guy, or say 3% difference

                        for balas, she also had disadvantage of running on dirt, which ole-timers here say cost them 1s/lap over a synthetic

                        most optimistic woud be a 45s on dirt running 44s on synthetic or ~ 2.2%

                        now, trying same calc we did to wt loss on jumpers, apply 1.022 to COM, which was 1.022^3/2 = 1.033

                        applying this to ?1.83 tall gal who jumped 1.91 - she raised her COM of 1.83 * 2/3 = 1.22m, by 0.69m

                        so, from dirt to synthetic, her improvement woud be 0.69 * 1.033 = 0.72m or

                        1.94m

                        you have to add scissors to flop conversion, which i use as 3%, ( but i'll wait for further input ) which ->

                        ~ 2.00m


                        as modern jumper with flop on synthetic

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          For general viewingI: Holm scissoring 2.10m:
                          http://youtubeochjag.wordpress.com/2008 ... saxar-210/

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by eldrick

                            i think some of the ex-hj'ers here said difference between flop & straddle is something something like 3 - 4cm & possibly another 2 - 3cm between that & scissors, so we are talking more like 5 - 7cm, not 25cm
                            I do not have the expertise to judge the true expected difference in height
                            between the different techniques; however, I have sofar had the impression
                            that the scissors-to-straddle switch was a noticeably greater revolution than
                            the straddle-to-flop switch.

                            What do the experts say?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by eldrick
                              i think some of the ex-hj'ers here said difference between flop & straddle is something something like 3 - 4cm & possibly another 2 - 3cm between that & scissors, so we are talking more like 5 - 7cm, not 25cm
                              So, according to you, Sotomayor could have scissored 2.38-2.40? :shock:
                              Było smaszno, a jaszmije smukwijne...

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                wiki quotes balas as

                                Her technique was a sophisticated version of the scissors technique
                                which i'd assume was more akin to a straddle than a basic scissor - if soto was going to try a scissor, i'd suggest he'd have also gone for this sophisticated version

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