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  • #31
    Originally posted by eldrick
    it does offer a "moral" question though. if an athlete tests +ve towards end of their career, does it mean it is reasonable or morally right to accuse them of doping at an other part of their career if you so wish ?
    Good question, well asked. Some folks have already tried to answer but what counts for me is that the IOC, the IAAF and anyone else involved with the administration of our sport must be seen to be tough on PED's.

    We have to have a consistently tough message that if you take PED's or do anything artificial to enhance your performance then: a) you will get caught and b) the sanctions will be tough and possibly career ending.

    Anyone who loves T&F has to sign up to that.

    As for excluding earlier performances; my own view is that any performance in the year in which you test +ve, and the previous year, are eliminated. By that standard Soto's world record stands. I love the guy, and have fond memories of watching him jump, but thinking about what he and the others have done to my sport just leaves a sour taste in my mouth; I don't expect my heroes to do that to me, and it hurts when they do.

    Martin
    the baton is meant to be passed on

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by mump boy
      Originally posted by croflash
      Sorry, but if someone has tested positive twice, all of his credibility is gone.
      agreed but cocaine and nadrolone are hardly THG
      Also agreed, at least cocaine.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by croflash
        Originally posted by mump boy
        Originally posted by croflash
        Sorry, but if someone has tested positive twice, all of his credibility is gone.
        agreed but cocaine and nadrolone are hardly THG
        Also agreed, at least cocaine.
        nadrolona is obviously just as bad as any other steroid but there were so many strange results from it that there is asways an * against any + in my head.

        as for Eldy (i'm not sure why i bother) but you have the most bizaar way of looking at stuff. Balas didn;t compete today so it is impossible to compare. who knows what she could have done, with modern training, money, tracks, techniques. what you think she possibly could have jumped means absolutely nothing.the stats are very clear

        balas was world #1 for 9 straight years at a time when female athletes often only competed for a couple of years she took the WR up from 1.74-1.91 !!! and was unbeaten from 1957-1967 winning 140 comps and 2 OG

        Stefka i a clear second and her WR is amaaaazing (he has the best HJ technique of anyone i have ever seen) but she was only completely dominant for 4 years and in that time she managed to lose the OG in 88 after that she went off the boil for years untill coming back to top form. you can only compare like with like and therefore Balas is beyond the GOAT
        i deserve extra credit

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        • #34
          Originally posted by eldrick
          wiki quotes balas as

          Her technique was a sophisticated version of the scissors technique
          which i'd assume was more akin to a straddle than a basic scissor - if soto was going to try a scissor, i'd suggest he'd have also gone for this sophisticated version
          I think her "sophisticated scissors" was probably closer to a Western roll than a straddle.

          Comment


          • #35
            Here's a question for Mark, if he's following this discussion.

            I remember Rolf Beilschmidt warming up for the 1979 World Cup and clearing 2.15 with a scissors. But I was far away, and it happened so quickly while I wasn't playing close attention, that I couldn't believe my eyes.

            Did you ever see Beilschmidt warm up in this fashion? And if so, do you recall the highest bar he cleared?

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by dj
              I remember Rolf Beilschmidt warming up for the 1979 World Cup and clearing 2.15 with a scissors.
              A 7' scissors clearance - wow! A couple of years back at a big HS invitational down here, a boy with a PR over 7' was being the typical adolescent show-off. As the other top boys were going out at 6'4 and 6'6, he would scissor the heights with his warm-ups on (despite it being a warm day). He was the only jumper at 6'8 and he took off the sweat top, but kept on the sweat pants and scissored the height again! At 6'10 he took off the sweat pants and tried to scissor it. Not close. This seemed to embarrass him, so he tried to scissor again and failed again (Casey at the Bat much?). On his final attempt he tried to flop, but ended up half flopping, half scissoring and missed again. Maybe he learned a lesson that day. Or not. He was a phenomenal talent that I never heard from again.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by dj
                Here's a question for Mark, if he's following this discussion.

                I remember Rolf Beilschmidt warming up for the 1979 World Cup and clearing 2.15 with a scissors. But I was far away, and it happened so quickly while I wasn't playing close attention, that I couldn't believe my eyes.

                Did you ever see Beilschmidt warm up in this fashion? And if so, do you recall the highest bar he cleared?
                I competed against Beilschmidt a bunch of times but can't remember seeing him do the scissors in warm up. Of course, that doesn't imply he didn't. My overriding memory of Rolf was watching him walk around on crutches after the Euro Final in Prague, 1978.

                The most impressive were Sjoberg and Thranhardt who used to scissor around 2.10m warming up. Holm's scissors pb was 2.12m (I think) and he once said he thought 30cms was a good guesstimate of the scissors/flop differential.

                (btw - tall guys are obviously at an advantage with the scissors, so Holm doing 2.12m is remarkable)

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by marknhj
                  The most impressive were Sjoberg and Thranhardt who used to scissor around 2.10m warming up. Holm's scissors pb was 2.12m (I think) and he once said he thought 30cms was a good guesstimate of the scissors/flop differential.

                  (btw - tall guys are obviously at an advantage with the scissors, so Holm doing 2.12m is remarkable)
                  so even if we conservatively give women 20cm it means that Balas jumps 2.11 and according to Eldricks calculations she becomes the undisputed GOAT :-)

                  you happy now Eldy :P
                  i deserve extra credit

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Balas did not jump the simple scissor version we see during warm-ups today.

                    She used the Eastern Cut-off in a not very efficient way. The Eastern was a further development of the Scissor. Sweeney jumped this way before the turn of the 20th century. The technique was much more efficient than the Scissor. The body was not upright but tilted backward and out towards the take-off.
                    It was a complicated technique and hard to learn but the Euro record of Kotkas lasted until 1954. (set with this technique)
                    The scissor and the Cut-off are related and the Western Roll and the straddle are related.

                    I would imagine it would be possible to go well over 2.20 with the Eastern Cut-off and maybe 2.25 with the Western Roll.

                    Of course today the only other technique that makes sense other than the flop is the simple upright scissor for warm ups and drills.

                    I would think Balas could learn the flop since she already took off on the outside foot. Well over 2m would likely have been the result.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Marlow
                      Originally posted by dj
                      I remember Rolf Beilschmidt warming up for the 1979 World Cup and clearing 2.15 with a scissors.
                      A 7' scissors clearance - wow! A couple of years back at a big HS invitational down here, a boy with a PR over 7' was being the typical adolescent show-off. As the other top boys were going out at 6'4 and 6'6, he would scissor the heights with his warm-ups on (despite it being a warm day). He was the only jumper at 6'8 and he took off the sweat top, but kept on the sweat pants and scissored the height again! At 6'10 he took off the sweat pants and tried to scissor it. Not close. This seemed to embarrass him, so he tried to scissor again and failed again (Casey at the Bat much?). On his final attempt he tried to flop, but ended up half flopping, half scissoring and missed again. Maybe he learned a lesson that day. Or not. He was a phenomenal talent that I never heard from again.
                      For an old fart, I am amazed that you remember so much of this dream. What in the hell did you eat before you went to bed? Nuts?
                      "Who's Kidding Who?"

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by EPelle
                        For general viewingI: Holm scissoring 2.10m:
                        http://youtubeochjag.wordpress.com/2008 ... saxar-210/
                        Holm's scissoring technique here is actually quite advanced.
                        Note the landing on both feet + he is tilting his body sideways and toward the bar.
                        This is a more efficient clearance than in the scissoring technique of most jumpers.

                        He is approaching an Eastern Cut-off technique.
                        So, it's possible that part of Holm's scissoring improvement was due to his gradual improvement of the scissoring technique.
                        In earlier years he used to say that he could gauge how well he would do in a comp. by how high he could scissor in warm-ups. More recently he no longer feels this is true.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          for a guy with a 30" inseam, that is freakish.
                          ... nothing really ever changes my friend, new lines for old, new lines for old.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by EPelle
                            For general viewingI: Holm scissoring 2.10m:
                            http://youtubeochjag.wordpress.com/2008 ... saxar-210/
                            That is amazing. Even more so for a short guy.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I watched the clip. I still don't believe it.
                              "Who's Kidding Who?"

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by bambam1729
                                Originally posted by Diego Sahagún
                                I vote for the shorts: Austin, Conway, Holm, Matei.. :wink: I know there are shortest but I like those...

                                Aside his doping caughts I see Soto as one of the best HJers ever. I've couldn't see Brumel.

                                As for the women, Kostadinova and Balas were great
                                Well, if you couldn't see Brumel and thus rank him, how do you then rank Balas, who goes back even further? But those two are the HJ GOATs to me. Although Kostadinova was quite good.
                                Because I've heard extraordinary things by her, I've also studied her field life

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