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  • #31
    Re: T and F News not reporting Shinnick American Record

    What testimony could track officials apply that would be relevant? That it was cloudy that night?
    We are talking about a time period of a few seconds, and whether the wind was 3 mph or 8 mph? It is foolish to put any faith into what people thought the wind was afterwards with that precision.


    By the way, I sure hope Mike Tully doesn't feel this way. Unlike Mr. Shinnick, he was definitely screwed out of a certain WR.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: T and F News not reporting Shinnick American Record

      >LOL!
      Most idiotic post ever on this board? It gets my vote.

      The part that really had me in stitches was where it said that if it wasn't for Shinnick, women wouldn't be PVing or HTing today :-)))))))
      Było smaszno, a jaszmije smukwijne...

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: T and F News not reporting Shinnick American Record

        <LOL!
        Most idiotic post ever on this board? It gets my vote.>

        Mine, too.
        "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
        by Thomas Henry Huxley

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: T and F News not reporting Shinnick American Record

          Let me add my own condemnation to the above "support" for Shinnick. "Arguments" like this clearly do not help the cause. At the risk of repetition, however: there is no "cause" here to help. The facts: Shinnick had a fabulous jump that beat Boston. Through official incompetence, there was no wind reading. Even IF the evidence didn't strongly suggest that Shinnick's jump WAS significanly aided (and it CLEARLY does suggest that), the mark couldn't be sent on for record approval because it lacked a wind reading. It is not enough to suggest that the jump MIGHT have been legal. It is necessary to PROVE that it WAS legal. Once Shinnick hit the sand, it became impossible to prove that--impossible then and impossible now. End of story.

          Sadly, all the historical sympathy that Shinnick has had over this matter seems to be rapidly draining away.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: T and F News not reporting Shinnick American Record

            About ten years ago I wrote the IAAF and had many letter exchanges and in the end I was referred to the 1936 IAAF Rule 26 para 2 which says that six officials or a wind gauge reading were acceptable for a WR. Without this undertstanding I would have not submitted the application. Tom Moore, Leon Glover and all the officials around the pit had the same understanding that I had, and they signed legal affidavits to that effect, are they honorable men or not? The rules you are referring to are not appropriate for me. I called Ralph Boston this morning and told him about Track and Field News lack of support for the record and it is clear that you people put yourselves above officials or athltes and what they say, or even the rules.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: T and F News not reporting Shinnick American Record

              >What testimony could track officials apply that would be relevant? That it was
              >cloudy that night?
              We are talking about a time period of a few seconds, and
              >whether the wind was 3 mph or 8 mph? It is foolish to put any faith into what
              >people thought the wind was afterwards with that precision.


              By the way,
              >I sure hope Mike Tully doesn't feel this way. Unlike Mr. Shinnick, he was
              >definitely screwed out of a certain WR.

              conor, what's this about Tully ? I have vague memories of something.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: T and F News not reporting Shinnick American Record

                Hjsteve. In 1978 at a meet in Corvallis Mike Tully jumped 5.71 (18' 8 3/4") breaking Dave Roberts' mark of 5.70. However, in those days the height had to be remeasured. In attempting to remeasure the height the bar fell off. When it was replaced the heighth was now only 5.69! The mark was not ratified and Tully was thus---unlike our hero Phil Shinnick---screwed out of certain WR.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: T and F News not reporting Shinnick American Record

                  >The record committee is a lap dog for Bob Hirsh, who has personal ego involvement in trying to beat SHinnick in a committee.<


                  Just for the record, that is absolute nonsense.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: T and F News not reporting Shinnick American Record

                    >LOL!
                    Most idiotic post ever on this board? It gets my vote.


                    Methinks that it is a joke. Do a google search on that person.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: T and F News not reporting Shinnick American Record

                      Leon Glover Sr. heard the sound of the wind gauge and could tell that it was calm during that period. This affidvit was burned in Bob Hersh's apartment as was all the other documentation. How is it that in the 1968 Olympic Trails I had all legal jumps and Boston, Mays and Beamon all had wind aided jumps just minutes apart? Remember the jump is just 3 seconds. It is as if people had no sense of the wind. Brian and I threw grass in the air to see if the wind was blowing before I went. Remember that you have to look at a wind gauge through your eyes and then write it down, there can be mistakes from this and it is not objective. Sight is subjective as is writing something down. I spent alot of time with Leon Glover Jr recently and because of the seriousness of the situation he could remember what happened. The point is that if there is a difficulty then one has to look at all the circumstances and get a reading from those at the jumps. Tom Moore the meet director had a hurdle race WR without a gauge and Brutus Hamilton did an affidavit and it was accepted. There are numerous WRs accepted after the fact like Joubert of South African or the Swiss HJer whose retroactively had her record approved. I jumped 26' 10" on my first jump and knew the next one would be good so I was very aware of the wind. When Ralph jumped the wind picked up, later. In terms of me having a life, I worked full time during my career and now have a full life and jumping has been my passion and without that I would not have been able to do what I did. In 1968 I peaked at Tahoe and Flagstaff as did Ralph and Beamon, two years of training for a meet and retroactively altitude marks were changed, so why have the Olympic at altitude or the meets there if they were not to be counted? I had a 26' 9 1/2/" at Flagstaff then five mintues later had a 26' 9 1/2" wind aided.As for that ladies' comments it just comes from an athletes heart.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: T and F News not reporting Shinnick American Record

                        >>LOL!
                        Most idiotic post ever on this board? It gets my vote.


                        Methinks
                        >that it is a joke. Do a google search on that person.

                        I did earlier and mainly found bondage sites! What do you mean?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: T and F News not reporting Shinnick American Record

                          Methinks
                          >that it is a joke. Do a google search on that
                          >person.

                          >I did earlier and mainly found bondage sites! >What do you mean?

                          Well, maybe it's just me but if I were trying to defend someone I believed in vehemently, I'd pick a more respectable handle. To each his or her own I suppose. And I don't know who this Bob Hirsh person is...

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: T and F News not reporting Shinnick American Record

                            Phil, this horse is getting beaten quite a bit, and none of us has access/knowledge to everything that you presented to the Records Committee in North Carolina. Having said that, it was YOUR decision to write a strident and quite strange message on this board, so here we are.

                            Question: Am we to assume that you now have "6 officials" that certified that there was a "legal wind.? Were these 6 people all officials right down there on the runway at the time you made your jump ?

                            And most important of all, when did these 6 officials make their assertions of "legality" ? Was it back then, when it all happened, or was it perhaps 40 years later ?

                            And if this is all so open and shut, why did the Records Committee unanimously reject it ?

                            As to why the Mens' Committee overruled it, that is another question... what rationale did the Mens Committe have to overrule ?

                            So many questions here Phil, and so few answers.

                            And as to these "1936 IAF Rules" that you reference, is it indeed true, or was it indded true, that in 1963 these rules were still fully in force, and 6 officials could indeed make up for the lack of a wind reading ? We hear you say it, but is this completely accurate ? Some of your other assertions have been directly refuted already, such as "Track & Field News" being at the Records Committe hearing and working against you there. Garry Hill has directly denied that anyone from Track & Field News was at that meeting. Becomes a credibility issue Phil.

                            And how in the world can you or others castigate Track & Field News over all this ? Your second posting, although a bit strange at least has some rationality to it. But it is completely dwarfed and diminished in credibility by your initial posting.

                            And finally a rant along the lines of one of your supporters a while ago just adds to the strangeness of this entire colloquy. With friends like that you sure don't need any enemies.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: T and F News not reporting Shinnick American Record

                              In the IAAF WR book (2003) there is a long entry on this record (In fact from my observation it is the longest entry in the entire book. Twice as long as the one about Carl Lewis's 30 foot 'foul'.) What Mr. P fails to mention is all the contradictory information and testimony concerning this effort. For example, some testify there was a low hurdle race (that was a legal wind) while others state that there was no event going on at the time. If they can't get something like that straight how can anyone testify later that the wind was 3 mph or 6 mph?

                              As for other records being ratified on testimony there are plenty of records that were denied because of circumstances similar to this case.
                              In 1932 James Carlton broke the 220 record by running 20.6. But as in this case there was contradictory testimony as to the wind and the record was denied.

                              P.S. Mr. Phinnick should consider himself lucky. Apparently Mr. Carlton was so upset that he quit track and joined a monastary!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: T and F News not reporting Shinnick American Record

                                Everything that I say can be verified from accounts the officials made. They were around the pit and behind me when I jumped because they all expected Ralph to break the WR.Ralph jumped right after me. To my count I had nine officials within ten feet from me when I jumped. They voted right after the meet to accept the record..see Brachman SF Examiner of May 26th 1963. It is all there for the public record. Headlines, "Officials vote to support Shinnick". Tom Moore sent me a letter saying it was calm during the time I jumped but if he went forward Olan Cassell would punish him by taking away his sanction, witnesses can testify to that. Anyone who wants the record can get it from the CD, from me at phillip @pbtinstitute.org or US T and F. I very much appreciate these responses because it tells me what is not understood. John Chaplin was at Modesto and was standing on the track not far from where I jumped. He knows and that is why he fought for it. Now we have Bob Hersh our IAAF council member not supporting a US decision and actually lobbying against it like Track and Field News.I was told that the record committee couldn't do anything else but instructed the Men's track and field committee to look at all the evidence and make a broader decision because of the narrowness of their charge.

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