Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Mexico times revisited

Collapse

Unconfigured Ad Widget

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by paulthefan
    Here are a few sites with references.

    In short testosterone levels drop off from a man's 18-20 yr age levels pretty quickly such that by 40 you are operating at much much lower levels:

    http://www.endotext.org/male/male11/male11.htm

    here is another:

    http://www.vrp.com/articles.aspx?ProdID=art469&zTYPE=2

    with what could be called a "seminal" (well almost reference being:

    6. Ottinger, Mary Ann. Male reproduction: Testosterone, gonadotropins, and aging, in: Mobbs, C.V., and Hof, P.R. (eds). Functional Endocrinology of Aging. Interdiscipl Top Gerontol, Basel, Karger, 1998, Vol. 29, 105-126.

    Of course every man that can remember what his life was "like" at 18 years of age knows this. There are a few other better references out there but I could not find/recover them.
    that 1st study you quote is known in the trade as a "michael mouse" study - no one takes testo levels from saliva for therapeutic decisions & that is bumpf from a company trying to sell a new method

    the 2nd study is better as i've seen mention of baltimore study on research, but it gives an age 20 - 29 breakdown, rather than 20 - 25 & the 25 - 29

    here is another study from vermeulen, who seems the top man in the field ( his formula for calculating the free circulating testo from SHBG-bound testo is the gold standard for calculation )

    http://www.antiaging.org/andropause/andropause2.html

    he gives peak testo in the 30's

    What contemporary reports? As one watches the video, it is as obvious as the nose on your face that over a large part of the curve he is not even near the inside line... please site your sources and where they were positioned/ standing during the race else your comments are useless on this subject.

    hmm...visual/video record/evidence of the curve is not good enough, eldrick needs to find someone who heard something from someone who believed something about a race that was not the race in question. Simply priceless.
    i've watched vid a few times & his feet on the curve are obscured

    unless you claim to have x-ray vision & can see his feet position around that bend, it is nonsense to claim you can see him run a clean curve

    quotes about his illegal curve running that race are from contemporary reports of observers - presumably journalists from here or other magazines saw it

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by paulthefan
      Other bodily functions: Brain function, thoracic organs etc, may be much more than 50% aerobic regardless of where you are. It is very easy to see that the total body aerobic output could be above 20% during a 100m sprint. It is not obvious that making changes to the flow of o2 will have any impact on the dashing itself which is conducted by the muscular/skeletal system operating as a near 100% anaerobic system
      pauly

      i don't know if you're picking up your physiology knowledge from National Enquirer, but anyone with a little background will realise this is nonsense

      you have forgotten about the "flight or fight" response to extreme stress ( a 100m ) which means the body goes into sympathetic system overdrive & blood flow is mostly diverted away from all current non-essential places ( GI, renal & hepatic ) to 2 most essential regions for the "flight or fight" response to be maintained - the Musculoskeletal sytem & the brain

      if aerobic metabolism is 20% in a 100m, the vast majority of it will be to the muscles

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Mexico times revisited

        Originally posted by kuha
        We've been around & around on this one over the years, and I've completely come around to gh's view that some athletes--e.g., Kip Keino--were essentially unaffected by the MC altitude. While it's safe to say that the lower-density air + altitude was a "wash" for low-landers at 800m, it was very likely a "wash" for Keino at 1500m. It may not make "sense" according to human averages, but in this case we're not talking about averages--we're talking about a single case. I'm of the opinion that Keino's 3:34.9 at altitude may have been "really worth" about 3:34.5 at sea level. That's "it." He had a proven (and unusual) ability to run fast at varying degrees of altitude. Conversely, no sea level performance would remotely suggest that he was anything like a 3:30 talent--or, for that matter, any more than a 3:34 talent (which, as we know, was pretty great at the time).
        we have been thru it plenty

        - how about doubell & his almost wr of 1'44.4 - he was a low-lander

        - the africans in 3kSc & above didn't run close to their sea-level bests ( & neither did any other africans in the 1500m )

        - you seem to ignore that the O2 level at mexico is piss-poor & that he woudn't run faster at sea-level with much more O2 available ?!

        - ryun himself said that he was in excellents shape in mexico ( maybe not in '67 shape ( that was possibly 3'27/3'28 ), but still damn good ), so for him to run ~3s behind keino ( converts to ~ 3'32 ) is completely in keeping with his statement

        - this was keino's best ever 1500, far superior to anything that he'd run before but others have done similarly - komen & his 7'20 or hicham dropping from 3'28.9 to 3'26.00wr in 1 go, or bayi's 3'32.2wr

        - he ran a 7'39wr on dirt 3y before when he was unlikely as good as in mexico - run on synthetic & with good pacing, that had to be ~7'30 back then - if you've good at worst a 7'30 background & you are primarily a 1500 guy, 3'30 is perfectly feasible

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by eldrick
          Originally posted by paulthefan
          Here are a few sites with references.

          In short testosterone levels drop off from a man's 18-20 yr age levels pretty quickly such that by 40 you are operating at much much lower levels:

          http://www.endotext.org/male/male11/male11.htm

          here is another:

          http://www.vrp.com/articles.aspx?ProdID=art469&zTYPE=2

          with what could be called a "seminal" (well almost reference being:

          6. Ottinger, Mary Ann. Male reproduction: Testosterone, gonadotropins, and aging, in: Mobbs, C.V., and Hof, P.R. (eds). Functional Endocrinology of Aging. Interdiscipl Top Gerontol, Basel, Karger, 1998, Vol. 29, 105-126.

          Of course every man that can remember what his life was "like" at 18 years of age knows this. There are a few other better references out there but I could not find/recover them.
          that 1st study you quote is known in the trade as a "michael mouse" study - no one takes testo levels from saliva for therapeutic decisions & that is bumpf from a company trying to sell a new method

          the 2nd study is better as i've seen mention of baltimore study on research, but it gives an age 20 - 29 breakdown, rather than 20 - 25 & the 25 - 29


          here is another study from vermeulen, who seems the top man in the field ( his formula for calculating the free circulating testo from SHBG-bound testo is the gold standard for calculation )

          http://www.antiaging.org/andropause/andropause2.html

          he gives peak testo in the 30's

          What contemporary reports? As one watches the video, it is as obvious as the nose on your face that over a large part of the curve he is not even near the inside line... please site your sources and where they were positioned/ standing during the race else your comments are useless on this subject.

          hmm...visual/video record/evidence of the curve is not good enough, eldrick needs to find someone who heard something from someone who believed something about a race that was not the race in question. Simply priceless.
          i've watched vid a few times & his feet on the curve are obscured

          unless you claim to have x-ray vision & can see his feet position around that bend, it is nonsense to claim you can see him run a clean curve

          quotes about his illegal curve running that race are from contemporary reports of observers - presumably journalists from here or other magazines saw it

          You provide this board with webMD as an authoritative source for peak testosterone levels at age 40 and then you have the gaul to come back here and criticize the ref.s I gave you. These above ref. you provide now are not terribly relevant as they do not ref. measurements at the lower age band. Read it. The curve in your ref. looks like it was extrapolated into the lower band and there is no measurement. My guess is these are sites that are trying to address the problem of old age and therefore focus is on 40-70. I will stick with my ref. as they address measurements at the younger age band.

          Regarding Mennea's '79 WR , the video provides absolute positive evidence to any person with reasonable vision that he is running well inside his lane for a very good portion of the curve, the later part.

          Now this is how it should work, you should come back and provide positive evidence that he ran inside his lane in the first 1/2 of the curve. This can be either physical evidence or testimony of someone who was there, best if the person has some official credentials but not necessary for our discussion as I will be convinced by the quality of the testimony. I will look forward to be disabused of my belief that he didnt cheat.

          Yapping about unspecified people who saw him step on a line back in some unspecified race that is not this race is a non-starter, even for webMD.
          ... nothing really ever changes my friend, new lines for old, new lines for old.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by paulthefan
            then you have the gaul to come back here and criticize the ref.s I gave you.
            Gaul is divided into three parts:
            1. the facts
            2. just the facts. ma'am
            3. T&FN Forums—Facts, Not Fiction

            hey, don't shoot the messenger!

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by paulthefan
              You provide this board with webMD as an authoritative source for peak testosterone levels at age 40 and then you have the gaul to come back here and criticize the ref.s I gave you. These above ref. you provide now are not terribly relevant as they do not ref. measurements at the lower age band. Read it. The curve in your ref. looks like it was extrapolated into the lower band and there is no measurement. My guess is these are sites that are trying to address the problem of old age and therefore focus is on 40-70. I will stick with my ref. as they address measurements at the younger age band
              i have no idea what you are waffling on about ?!

              "extrapolated from lower band" ???

              how on earth does it appear to you to be a backward "extrapolation" if there is a peak & then a decline shown before 35 - 44 group ???

              extrapolations do not change the polarity of their (dy)^2/(dx)^2

              as for the veracity of the author, look up "vermeulen + testosterone" & see how many hits you get - he is close/if not top man in field

              "My guess is these are sites that are trying to address the problem of old age and therefore focus is on 40-70"

              let me into a little secret - every study focuses on age 40+ & before that age is of only comparative interest - look at the studies you quote

              the reasons are 2 fold :

              - relevance of testo levels to prostate cancer
              - trying to find evidence for an "andropause" so that there is justification to sell testo supplements to middle-aged men

              there are few if any studies concentrating on testo levels between age 20 - 40y because that is not the target population to sell testo to

              Regarding Mennea's '79 WR , the video provides absolute positive evidence to any person with reasonable vision that he is running well inside his lane for a very good portion of the curve, the later part.

              Now this is how it should work, you should come back and provide positive evidence that he ran inside his lane in the first 1/2 of the curve. This can be either physical evidence or testimony of someone who was there, best if the person has some official credentials but not necessary for our discussion as I will be convinced by the quality of the testimony. I will look forward to be disabused of my belief that he didnt cheat.

              Yapping about unspecified people who saw him step on a line back in some unspecified race that is not this race is a non-starter, even for webMD.
              the vid shows him in his lane coming of it ino the stretch - last 10 - 15m of so

              it does not have the clarity to show his lane running in inital 85 - 90m

              we can wait for the t&f report of the race - someone will have the back issue

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Marlow
                Originally posted by paulthefan
                then you have the gaul to come back here and criticize the ref.s I gave you.
                Gaul is divided into three parts:
                1. the facts
                2. just the facts. ma'am
                3. T&FN Forums—Facts, Not Fiction

                hey, don't shoot the messenger!
                Marlow's response is cleverer than mine, so I do not have the gall to post it.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by eldrick
                  [
                  "extrapolated from lower band" ???

                  how on earth does it appear to you to be a backward "extrapolation" if there is a peak & then a decline shown before 35 - 44 group ???

                  extrapolations do not change the polarity of their (dy)^2/(dx)^2

                  as for the veracity of the author, look up "vermeulen + testosterone" & see how many hits you get - he is close/if not top man in field

                  "My guess is these are sites that are trying to address the problem of old age and therefore focus is on 40-70"

                  let me into a little secret - every study focuses on age 40+ & before that age is of only comparative interest - look at the studies you quote

                  the reasons are 2 fold :

                  - relevance of testo levels to prostate cancer
                  - trying to find evidence for an "andropause" so that there is justification to sell testo supplements to middle-aged men

                  there are few if any studies concentrating on testo levels between age 20 - 40y because that is not the target population to sell testo to

                  Regarding Mennea's '79 WR , the video provides absolute positive evidence to any person with reasonable vision that he is running well inside his lane for a very good portion of the curve, the later part.

                  Now this is how it should work, you should come back and provide positive evidence that he ran inside his lane in the first 1/2 of the curve. This can be either physical evidence or testimony of someone who was there, best if the person has some official credentials but not necessary for our discussion as I will be convinced by the quality of the testimony. I will look forward to be disabused of my belief that he didnt cheat.

                  Yapping about unspecified people who saw him step on a line back in some unspecified race that is not this race is a non-starter, even for webMD.
                  the vid shows him in his lane coming of it ino the stretch - last 10 - 15m of so

                  it does not have the clarity to show his lane running in inital 85 - 90m

                  we can wait for the t&f report of the race - someone will have the back issue
                  The video shows far more than the final 15m of the bend.. If you are willing to distort the obvious video record, can we trust you to be honest with other evidence and testimony. You have provided nothing but baseless claims after your 4th post on the matter. I look forward to calling that WR a mistake if that is the case, but your contentless posts are not getting us there. As I said, run along and provide something useful, come back with some real testimony of someone that was there. That would be a big help to us.

                  Regarding the test levels, I stand by the references I have cited . I dont trust the plots that you cite in the band 18-30, they dont look credible, I would like to see the measures and method that produced those cartoon like figures. They are in disagrement with the plots that I have shown that actually have measurements in the 20-30 band. I will try to find more measurements as well. I repeat test levels not peak at age of 40 but rather on average they peak at or below age 20.

                  to marlow and lonestar, sorry for mistake on gall.
                  ... nothing really ever changes my friend, new lines for old, new lines for old.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Just keeing you on your toes, paul.

                    I have nothing to add to the testosterone debate but I can testify, without having been tested , although my brain seems to be fully testosterone charged , indications are it has assuredly decreased in the rest of my body in the the fifty eight years since I was twenty, but I cannot pinpoint the year the decline started.

                    lonestar aka lonewolf

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by lonewolf
                      Just keeing you on your toes, paul.

                      I have nothing to add to the testosterone debate but I can testify, without having been tested , although my brain seems to be fully testosterone charged , indications are it has assuredly decreased in the rest of my body in the the fifty eight years since I was twenty, but I cannot pinpoint the year the decline started.

                      lonestar aka lonewolf
                      Yes, the brain is willing but the body is weak.
                      ... nothing really ever changes my friend, new lines for old, new lines for old.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        One flaw with this whole testosterone argument is that the discussion above is considering average levels in a population of normal men. The variance is huge at each age group and i would not consider elite athletes as typical with respect to the population.

                        In summary, the only data worth considering for this argument is testosterone levels in elite male sprinters from age 15-40. I assume there is no data set for this group.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by paulthefan
                          The video shows far more than the final 15m of the bend...
                          the video is there for anyone to see

                          let other observers use their eyesight & offer their opinion as to how much of the curve they can see him run in relation to the lane line

                          as for your absurd belief in testo levels, for the 3rd time, that plot is from the work of the top man in the field - vermuelen

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Daisy
                            One flaw with this whole testosterone argument is that the discussion above is considering average levels in a population of normal men. The variance is huge at each age group and i would not consider elite athletes as typical with respect to the population.

                            In summary, the only data worth considering for this argument is testosterone levels in elite male sprinters from age 15-40. I assume there is no data set for this group.
                            Elite athlete males are also a group with the greatest incentive to increase their testosterone levels by means other than their testes. If I were looking for a contaminated sample group that would be it. If we could control such a sample group with 24 hour monitoring over a few months it could work. A simple model would be to determine the rough age at which test is peaked, we care not to know how much variance their is in peak test levels but just want to know at what age the peak occurs. We have two hypotheses,
                            H1 Testosterone levels peak at 40 years of age.
                            H0 testosterone levels peak at 20 years of age.


                            Originally posted by eldrick
                            Originally posted by paulthefan
                            The video shows far more than the final 15m of the bend...
                            the video is there for anyone to see

                            let other observers use their eyesight & offer their opinion as to how much of the curve they can see him run in relation to the lane line

                            as for your absurd belief in testo levels, for the 3rd time, that plot is from the work of the top man in the field - vermuelen
                            Regarding Mennea:
                            Indeed and the video provides and adds something to this discussion. You can thank me for drawing your attention to it. So far it is the only positive evidence we have regarding the issue and so far it is evidence that Mennea did not run inside his lane. You continue to provided nothing to the discussion. These forums are for interaction, why are you so reluctant to give some evidence for your opinion? It will be welcome by me and I will thank you as I have no desire to not be disabused of a wrong view of something like this.

                            Regarding test levels:
                            The "top man" in the field must be completely uninterested in test levels in the age band 20-30 because his article does not address that band. The reference I gave does.
                            ... nothing really ever changes my friend, new lines for old, new lines for old.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by paulthefan
                              Originally posted by Daisy
                              One flaw with this whole testosterone argument is that the discussion above is considering average levels in a population of normal men. The variance is huge at each age group and i would not consider elite athletes as typical with respect to the population.

                              In summary, the only data worth considering for this argument is testosterone levels in elite male sprinters from age 15-40. I assume there is no data set for this group.
                              Elite athlete males are also a group with the greatest incentive to increase their testosterone levels by means other than their testes. If I were looking for a contaminated sample group that is it. If we could control that group with 24 hour monitoring it could work.
                              Agreed. Basically this data is practically impossible to obtain. One, due to the sample group being so specific for our interests and two, no one will pay for such a study.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Daisy
                                Originally posted by paulthefan

                                Elite athlete males are also a group with the greatest incentive to increase their testosterone levels by means other than their testes. If I were looking for a contaminated sample group that is it. If we could control that group with 24 hour monitoring it could work.
                                Agreed. Basically this data is practically impossible to obtain. One, due to the sample group being so specific for our interests and two, no one will pay for such a study.
                                The more important and first study would be a baseline of males, perhaps from a college campus (age 17-30) , not focused on elites, sadly today in the 21st century it is unlikely that even that sample would not be contaminated.

                                The study that I cited above is worth looking at.
                                ... nothing really ever changes my friend, new lines for old, new lines for old.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X