Jim Thorpe

[Texas]

I probably give the impression that I don't respect those legends from back in the day, that simply isn't true. My problem is that I understand the impact the black athlete made once he was able to compete on even terms. Look at the SEC before and after the black athlete. To talk about Jim Thorpe being this and that is cool because he was great. My thing is where was his black competitors? Please don't see this as some race/racial bull that's not how I want to come off, I just know what my experience has taught me. To fail to understand the levels of competition is a mistake. I understand that situation, so that's why I seem to not give the props some of you think the legends deserve. I look at.....who were they competing against as the big item. Didn't we hear...."the Cards are only there because they came out of that weak NFC West?"...hell yes we did. How many times have we seen a boxer build up an undefeated record fighting nobody's? Do you think those nobody's see themselves as that?

Competition..... is what should be at the head of any criteria in determining greatness. Who were they beating?

Charley Paddock was winning Cal State in 1915 in 10.4 yards. Sure he ran on dirt but so did high schoolers in the 50's who were running 9.7's. What big advantages did high school sprinters of the 50's have over high school sprinters of the teens?

I have to keep the legends in their era vs others dealing with what that dealth with. Sure we can say an Olympic Champion from 1920 was "Greater" than a non Olympian with a 9.98PR from 2004. Was he faster however? That would be a ...nope!

[paulthefan]

I would argue that he may have even been faster or as fast if we do a proper accounting of the difference they ran under. Charlie Paddock was a very fast sprinter. Born today, he would be a very fast sprinter.

As for athletes faced: Coaches did not train and build them like that, football strategy had no place for 300lb bodies, can you imagine Bear Bryant even allowing such an athlete on his field?.. of course not, if someone showed up to spring ball at 300lbs he would be thrown off the team. Yet the Bear is considered the most successful coach of the 60s. The mentality had not changed, even many great athletes by todays standards, in the 50s would have been viewed as not cutting it if they had other traits that didnt fit in... Put another way, take an NFL coach today and put him in a time machine back in the 50s (of course send with him that storehouse of performance enhancing disciplines that year 2000 athletes have) and he could, within 3 recruiting seasons build a roster with enough 300lbers to play any NFL team today.

Back to Jim Thorpe, he would today be a great NFL RB or DB.

[Texas]

I would argue that he may have even been faster or as fast if we do a proper accounting of the difference they ran under. Charlie Paddock was a very fast sprinter. Born today, he would be a very fast sprinter.

As for athletes faced: Coaches did not train and build them like that, football strategy had no place for 300lb bodies, can you imagine Bear Bryant even allowing such an athlete on his field?.. of course not, if someone showed up to spring ball at 300lbs he would be thrown off the team. Yet the Bear is considered the most successful coach of the 60s. The mentality had not changed, even many great athletes by todays standards, in the 50s would have been viewed as not cutting it if they had other traits that didnt fit in... Put another way, take an NFL coach today and put him in a time machine back in the 50s (of course send with him that storehouse of performance enhancing disciplines that year 2000 athletes have) and he could, within 3 recruiting seasons build a roster with enough 300lbers to play any NFL team today.

Back to Jim Thorpe, he would today be a great NFL RB or DB.

Totally disagree and here's why.....

We are getting bigger and faster. My son is bigger than I was at his age and I am bigger than my father. I'm betting most those reading this are in the same situation. Just a fact of life. Not sure why it's like that but it is. Thorpe or Paddock while great in their day competed against far inferior athletes than what they'd be in with today. First off they didn't have the great black athlete to contend with. That right there is huge. No way Jim Thorpe, The Galloping Ghost, Bronko Nagurski or The Four Horseman make a dent in todays game. Too small and in Nagurski's case too slow. They would all lack the quickness needed.

I do agree that in the Bears day these 300 pounders wouldn't fit. That doesn't mean a 245 pound back with 4.5 speed wouldn't be a gem. The biggest difference between then and now is the size ..WITH... speed athlete. Where were those tall/big/speedy receivers back in Bears day? If you recall John David Crow played at Texas A&M while Bryant was there. John David was a 225 pounder with good speed. All he'd do is win a Heisman because he was a rarity (as was Jim Brown/Ernie Davis at Syracuse) a big back with speed. Today every team has big speedy backs. Crow would go on the star with the then St.Louis Cardinals.

Jim Thorpe wouldn't blow by Deion Sanders, he wouldn't run over Ray Lewis and he most certainly wouldn't start over guys like Adrian Peterson, LaDanian Tomlinson etc etc etc.

[jhc68]

Here's an odd thing: for once I tend to agree with Texas. I don't think those 300lb. high-quality athletes existed in the 1950's... not the kind of quick, strong, wide-body guys we see in D1 and professional sports today.

On the other hand, how long can the trend toward bigger, faster, stronger continue in the USA. We seem to be producing fatter, less active kids. And not taller. Average ht. for American adults has not increased appreciably since the 1950's. The Dutch are currently the tallest national group on earth, 2-3 inches taller than American adults.

[Texas]

Here's an odd thing: for once I tend to agree with Texas. I don't think those 300lb. high-quality athletes existed in the 1950's... not the kind of quick, strong, wide-body guys we see in D1 and professional sports today.

On the other hand, how long can the trend toward bigger, faster, stronger continue in the USA. We seem to be producing fatter, less active kids. And not taller. Average ht. for American adults has not increased appreciably since the 1950's. The Dutch are currently the tallest national group on earth, 2-3 inches taller than American adults.

The tall/fast receiver and the big/fast back are at an all time high in football today. So many athletes out there that fit that discription. What team doesn't have a speedy 6-3 fast wide out or a 230 pound back with speed? Ok ok there are a few but very few. I don't see that ending anytime soon.

[paulthefan]

you are deluded. we have had this discussion before, if anything the human genotype for size (if I can use this term loosely) in the US is probably getting smaller with the years as more east asians arrive. It was probably at its largest in the 50s/60s.

Id like to go back to the 50s and 60s, I can easily see getting some of those frames I recall up to 300lbs and they would be as athletic as any. Give me Parry OBrien and Id have one dangerous 300lb OT or DT for todays NFL.

Im bigger than my dad because I got to eat both more generally and more lean meat than he did. So what is your excuse.

Thorpe would be a multimillion dollar DB if he were coming out of Carlisle today.

[bambam]

you are deluded. we have had this discussion before, if anything the human genotype for size (if I can use this term loosely) in the US is probably getting smaller with the years as more east asians arrive. It was probably at its largest in the 50s/60s.

Id like to go back to the 50s and 60s, I can easily see getting some of those frames I recall up to 300lbs and they would be as athletic as any. Give me Parry OBrien and Id have one dangerous 300lb OT or DT for todays NFL.

Im bigger than my dad because I got to eat both more generally and more lean meat than he did. So what is your excuse.

Thorpe would be a multimillion dollar DB if he were coming out of Carlisle today.

I think I'd vote for tight end but the $ would be the same.

[Texas]

you are deluded. we have had this discussion before, if anything the human genotype for size (if I can use this term loosely) in the US is probably getting smaller with the years as more east asians arrive. It was probably at its largest in the 50s/60s.

Id like to go back to the 50s and 60s, I can easily see getting some of those frames I recall up to 300lbs and they would be as athletic as any. Give me Parry OBrien and Id have one dangerous 300lb OT or DT for todays NFL.

Im bigger than my dad because I got to eat both more generally and more lean meat than he did. So what is your excuse.

Thorpe would be a multimillion dollar DB if he were coming out of Carlisle today.

Haven't been to a high school football lately have you? Are you trying to tell me I'm not watching kids far bigger than we were back in the 60's out there? I'm blind?

Jim Thorpe would get chewed up and spit out in todays game.

[tandfman]

Haven't been to a high school football lately have you? Are you trying to tell me I'm not watching kids far bigger than we were back in the 60's out there? I'm blind?

Jim Thorpe would get chewed up and spit out in todays game.

Or, perhaps, he would see how big other players are, bulk up to the level he needed to (which he did not have to do when he played), and succeed today as he did in his day.

[Texas]

Haven't been to a high school football lately have you? Are you trying to tell me I'm not watching kids far bigger than we were back in the 60's out there? I'm blind?

Jim Thorpe would get chewed up and spit out in todays game.

Or, perhaps, he would see how big other players are, bulk up to the level he needed to (which he did not have to do when he played), and succeed today as he did in his day.

I wonder how many 4.3 corner backs Thorpe had to out run to the endzone? How many 245 pound backers he mowed over..hmm?

If he bulked up to 210 does he still have his speed which against these guys today wasn't all that much to begin with. You see in his day he was head and shoulder above his competition, that wouldn't be the case today in against guys bigger and faster.

How many footballers were there back then?

[paulthefan]

you are deluded. we have had this discussion before, if anything the human genotype for size (if I can use this term loosely) in the US is probably getting smaller with the years as more east asians arrive. It was probably at its largest in the 50s/60s.

Id like to go back to the 50s and 60s, I can easily see getting some of those frames I recall up to 300lbs and they would be as athletic as any. Give me Parry OBrien and Id have one dangerous 300lb OT or DT for todays NFL.

Im bigger than my dad because I got to eat both more generally and more lean meat than he did. So what is your excuse.

Thorpe would be a multimillion dollar DB if he were coming out of Carlisle today.

Haven't been to a high school football lately have you? Are you trying to tell me I'm not watching kids far bigger than we were back in the 60's out there? I'm blind?

Jim Thorpe would get chewed up and spit out in todays game.

Ive watched more HS football, live and on film in the last two decades than you have in your whole life.

[Marlow]

Jim Thorpe would get chewed up and spit out in todays game.

Or, perhaps, he would see how big other players are, bulk up to the level he needed to (which he did not have to do when he played), and succeed today as he did in his day.

Bingo! If he had been born in 1987, he'd have better nutrition, much more weight-room work, better coaching, and many more opportunities to 'get good' than he did in his day. He'd be bigger, stronger, faster and smarter than his old self. He'd be a first-team All-American and go in the first round, sign a $Multi-million contract, and become a star in the NFL.

[Texas]

you are deluded. we have had this discussion before, if anything the human genotype for size (if I can use this term loosely) in the US is probably getting smaller with the years as more east asians arrive. It was probably at its largest in the 50s/60s.

Id like to go back to the 50s and 60s, I can easily see getting some of those frames I recall up to 300lbs and they would be as athletic as any. Give me Parry OBrien and Id have one dangerous 300lb OT or DT for todays NFL.

Im bigger than my dad because I got to eat both more generally and more lean meat than he did. So what is your excuse.

Thorpe would be a multimillion dollar DB if he were coming out of Carlisle today.

Haven't been to a high school football lately have you? Are you trying to tell me I'm not watching kids far bigger than we were back in the 60's out there? I'm blind?

Jim Thorpe would get chewed up and spit out in todays game.

Ive watched more HS football, live and on film in the last two decades than you have in your whole life.

Well since I see about 10 games a year and have for over 30 years would you care to bet on that? Now add the 32 I played in.

[tandfman]

Jim Thorpe would get chewed up and spit out in todays game.

Or, perhaps, he would see how big other players are, bulk up to the level he needed to (which he did not have to do when he played), and succeed today as he did in his day.

Bingo! If he had been born in 1987, he'd have better nutrition, much more weight-room work, better coaching, and many more opportunities to 'get good' than he did in his day. He'd be bigger, stronger, faster and smarter than his old self. He'd be a first-team All-American and go in the first round, sign a $Multi-million contract, and become a star in the NFL.

And he'd never even think about doing a decathlon.

[Texas]

Jim Thorpe would get chewed up and spit out in todays game.

Or, perhaps, he would see how big other players are, bulk up to the level he needed to (which he did not have to do when he played), and succeed today as he did in his day.

Bingo! If he had been born in 1987, he'd have better nutrition, much more weight-room work, better coaching, and many more opportunities to 'get good' than he did in his day. He'd be bigger, stronger, faster and smarter than his old self. He'd be a first-team All-American and go in the first round, sign a $Multi-million contract, and become a star in the NFL.

Couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Once again who was he playing against way back then? Thorpe was in against guys who couldn't play major college football today. Way too small and slow. So what we saw/read about is a bit distorted. In 1912 the Olympic 100 meters was won in 10.8 hand timed. How many high schoolers run faster than that today? So tell me how many real fast guys did Thorpe have to face on a football field if a 10.8 is winning the Olympics?