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  • #61
    Re: 20.13..forever?

    Originally posted by Texas
    Originally posted by Marlow
    Originally posted by Texas
    Will anyone ever break Roy Martin's HS 200m record? Will anyone break MJ's "American Record" 19.32? I 'm starting to have doubts.
    Yes, and yes.
    As more HSers approach 10.10, it will become more apparent that 20.13 is not sacrosanct.
    If MJ and Bolt can do it, so can others.
    Actually we haven't seen anything to give the impression that Martin's 20.13 is going down anytime soon. I also don't see anyone really close to breaking 19.32 as far as Americans go. Talking normal humanoids and not some 6-5 alien.

    I don't look at 100m guys as much as I look at 400m guys who come down to the 200m as having the best shot at breaking 200m records. Martin had that 400 ability as we saw in those great 4x4 legs he ran. Obviously MJ could scoot a 400m. When Bolt ran his 19.30 what did we hear..."will he run the 4x4?" Now it's..."can he break the 400m record also?"
    Actually MJ's 19.32 was a bit of an aberration even for him.

    What was his career best prior to that race...19.6x or so?

    So who's to say that someone else couldnt experience a Bob Beamon-esque type performance.

    On the h.s. level as well.

    The longer distances in the 200/400 actually allows for somewhat out of character performances, IMO, whereas in the 100m most athletes seem to hover around record breaking times before and after breaking them.
    The fool has said...there is no God. Psa 14

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by eldrick
      Ever heard of Larry Black, Mike Marsh, Wallace Spearmon, Xavier Carter, John Regis, Adolph Plummer, Usain Bolt?
      laughable !

      i'm not interested in some high-school/college relay team level

      tell me how many of them ran 4x400 for their national team in a global

      clearly your level of "expertise" is high-school & nothing more...
      Well lets see...hmm?

      John Regis ran on the GB Oly 4x4 team
      Henry Carr ran on the USA 4x4 team
      Don Quarrie ran on the Jamaican Oly 4x4 team
      Pietro Mennea ran on the Italian Oly 4x4 team
      Wallace Spearmon ran on an indoor WR 4x4 team
      Edwin Roberts ran on Trinidads Oly 4x4 team
      Danny Everett ran on the USA Oly 4x4 team
      LaShawn Merritt ran on the USA Oly 4x4 team
      Tyree Washington ran on the USA World 4x4 team

      I gotta be honest with ya about something, I don't care if you're interested or not in what these guys did in HS/College. That's where they layed the foundation for their later success. Not surprised you didn't know that. So yes I'll use both HS/college acheivements...so..

      Tommie Smith ran on WR 4x4 teams
      Mike Marsh ran on HS 4x4 record team
      Xavier Carter ran on an NCAA 4x4 championship team
      Larry Black ran on a great NCC 4x4 team
      Roy Martin split 43.5 while at SMU

      Comment


      • #63
        Spearmon has been on a 2.59,71 professional team.
        Carter anchored a 2.59,59 team.

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: 20.13..forever?

          Originally posted by TrackDaddy
          Originally posted by Texas
          Originally posted by Marlow
          Originally posted by Texas
          Will anyone ever break Roy Martin's HS 200m record? Will anyone break MJ's "American Record" 19.32? I 'm starting to have doubts.
          Yes, and yes.
          As more HSers approach 10.10, it will become more apparent that 20.13 is not sacrosanct.
          If MJ and Bolt can do it, so can others.
          Actually we haven't seen anything to give the impression that Martin's 20.13 is going down anytime soon. I also don't see anyone really close to breaking 19.32 as far as Americans go. Talking normal humanoids and not some 6-5 alien.

          I don't look at 100m guys as much as I look at 400m guys who come down to the 200m as having the best shot at breaking 200m records. Martin had that 400 ability as we saw in those great 4x4 legs he ran. Obviously MJ could scoot a 400m. When Bolt ran his 19.30 what did we hear..."will he run the 4x4?" Now it's..."can he break the 400m record also?"
          Actually MJ's 19.32 was a bit of an aberration even for him.

          What was his career best prior to that race...19.6x or so?

          So who's to say that someone else couldnt experience a Bob Beamon-esque type performance.

          On the h.s. level as well.

          The longer distances in the 200/400 actually allows for somewhat out of character performances, IMO, whereas in the 100m most athletes seem to hover around record breaking times before and after breaking them.
          MJ was histories only sub10.10/43.50 sprinter. He was a unique breed of cat. He was fast and could maintain his speed better than anyone had ever been able to do. That combo of great speed and 43.50 ability=19.32. Look what it took to break his record. A guy with world record 100m ability and 45.low endurance. It will take somebody like that to run a sub 19.32. No 100m without the 400m in his arsenal is going to do it.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Texas

            Well lets see...hmm?

            John Regis ran on the GB Oly 4x4 team
            Henry Carr ran on the USA 4x4 team
            Don Quarrie ran on the Jamaican Oly 4x4 team
            Pietro Mennea ran on the Italian Oly 4x4 team
            Wallace Spearmon ran on an indoor WR 4x4 team
            Edwin Roberts ran on Trinidads Oly 4x4 team
            very good

            now, none of them coud coud break 45 for 400 ( or 46s for carr on dirt ) or make an individual global 400 final

            let me tell you a little secret :

            they made their relay squads, because the standard in their country was so crap that they coudn't find 4 class 400 guys & had to include a 200 guy - their top national guy was usually a derisory ~ 45.5 guy & next couple in 45.5 - 46.0 range - standard so poor that the 200 guy was best next 400 runner in their country !

            if those countries had 4 guys <45 at the time, none of the above wouda got a sniff of a chance of making the relay final

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: 20.13..forever?

              Originally posted by Texas
              That combo of great speed and 43.50 ability=19.32. Look what it took to break his record. A guy with world record 100m ability and 45.low endurance. It will take somebody like that to run a sub 19.32. No 100m without the 400m in his arsenal is going to do it.
              eh ?

              mj ran 43.39 in '95 & coud only match his pb of 19.79 - eyeballs out with a dip

              he was slower in '96 over 400 with 43.49 but ran 19.32

              explain to us why he coudn't run 19.32 in '95 ?!

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by eldrick
                Originally posted by Texas

                Well lets see...hmm?

                John Regis ran on the GB Oly 4x4 team
                Henry Carr ran on the USA 4x4 team
                Don Quarrie ran on the Jamaican Oly 4x4 team
                Pietro Mennea ran on the Italian Oly 4x4 team
                Wallace Spearmon ran on an indoor WR 4x4 team
                Edwin Roberts ran on Trinidads Oly 4x4 team
                very good

                now, none of them coud coud break 45 for 400 ( or 46s for carr on dirt ) or make an individual global 400 final

                let me tell you a little secret :

                they made their relay squads, because the standard in their country was so crap that they coudn't find 4 class 400 guys & had to include a 200 guy - their top national guy was usually a derisory ~ 45.5 guy & next couple in 45.5 - 46.0 range - standard so poor that the 200 guy was best next 400 runner in their country !

                if those countries had 4 guys <45 at the time, none of the above wouda got a sniff of a chance of making the relay final
                Translation

                I'll be damn he did it :cry:

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: 20.13..forever?

                  Originally posted by eldrick
                  Originally posted by Texas
                  That combo of great speed and 43.50 ability=19.32. Look what it took to break his record. A guy with world record 100m ability and 45.low endurance. It will take somebody like that to run a sub 19.32. No 100m without the 400m in his arsenal is going to do it.
                  eh ?

                  mj ran 43.39 in '95 & coud only match his pb of 19.79 - eyeballs out with a dip

                  he was slower in '96 over 400 with 43.49 but ran 19.32

                  explain to us why he coudn't run 19.32 in '95 ?!
                  You're now down to asking about 43.3 vs 43.4.......hahahaha!!!!!!!

                  Let's go directly to the bottom line....

                  No sprinter in history had ever ran a sub 10.10 and a sub 43.50. MJ had his own club. He had enought speed to be with anyone coming off the bend and then with his superior "speed endurance" he could do something nobody else could do, that being maintain a large % of his max. That's why he is still histories greatest 200/400 combo sprinter.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: 20.13..forever?

                    Originally posted by TrackDaddy
                    Actually MJ's 19.32 was a bit of an aberration even for him.

                    What was his career best prior to that race...19.6x or so?
                    he was stuck at 19.79 - 1st ran it at '92 trials from outside lane & matched in '95wc

                    upto '96 he was only 4th fastest american 200 guy of all time - behind marsh 19.73, Carl 19.75 & deloach 19.75

                    the key to his big improvement in '96 was not a 400 background ( he ran 43.39 in '95 but only 43.49 in '96 & remember he ran 43.65 in '93, but all thruout stuck at 19.79 ) but a huge improvement in 100m ability

                    he didn't run any actual 100s to show it, but his 10.12s split gives us enough to work on

                    physics tells you a bend costs you ~ 0.15 - 0.20s on the curve

                    if he'd run that bend on the straight, then he wouda split ~ 9.92 - 9.97

                    now, contrary to belief, you can't run 200m flat-out gun-to-tape - you can only expend maximal energy for about 13 - 14s before lactate kills you

                    you have to hold something like 0.1s back on the bend

                    if he'd run the 100m final that year, i'd not have been surprised at all to see him run

                    ~ 9.82 - 9.87

                    he wouda challenged bailey for the 100 gold

                    another backing for this is x-man & wally who are 19.6 guys & have finally shown their 100 abilities with 9.96 - 10.00

                    mj ran ~ 0.3s faster than them for 200m, which you conventially 1/2 for 100m estimate

                    taking 0.15s off 9.96 - 10.00 -> ~ 9.81 - 9.85

                    everything points to mj running low/mid 9.8 if he'd run the 100 final in his 19.32 shape

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: 20.13..forever?

                      Originally posted by Texas
                      You're now down to asking about 43.3 vs 43.4
                      yes

                      now please explain to the world why he didn't run 19.32 in '95 but only 19.79

                      amaze us...

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: 20.13..forever?

                        Originally posted by eldrick
                        Originally posted by Texas
                        You're now down to asking about 43.3 vs 43.4
                        yes

                        now please explain to the world why he didn't run 19.32 in '95 but only 19.79

                        amaze us...
                        That coming from a guy who has Michael Johnson challenging Donovan Bailey in a 100m, I think you did amaze us. That's totally ridiculous. MJ stood no chance at all vs Bailey, absolutely none.

                        MJ's 200m prowess wasn't due to his speed. He was not a sub 9.9 man. Yes he was probably faster than his 10.09, maybe...hmm...9.95ish. His game was his amazing stamina/endurance. No 9.8 guy could hang with him after 150 meters. When his superior endurance took over. These are things you should know but don't. How can you be so blind?

                        eldrick you have to stop with all that silly.....well if he can run a...xxx...then he can run a...xxxx. Dude, it simply doesn't work that way. You don't speculate like that. You go with what is actually being done.

                        Ever heard of Jerry Sims? He was a cat out of Alcorn who could run a 5.9 indoor 60, just like Bob Hayes, Jimmy Hines, Charlie Grrene and John Carlos. Now how come they all ran a 9.1 and Sims didn't? How come they were all Olympians and WR holders and Sims wasn't? Didn't he run a 60 just as fast? See how silly all that stuff is?

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          nonsense

                          his 400 ability worsened by 0.1s between '95 & '96, but his 200m went from 19.79 to 19.32

                          his "amazing" speed-endurance of 43.39 coud only get him 19.79 but worse speed-endurance of 43.49 in '96 got him 19.32 ?!

                          even you with your limited neuronal capacity shoud understand it wasn't the 400 ability that got him 19.32 - his speed-endurance was worse in '96 than '95

                          what got him 9.32 was near/at wr ability over 100m in '96

                          i'd have made bailey a 10/11 favorite & mj 11/10 over 100m

                          we've just seen a 10.03 guy go to 9.6 in 1y - the concept of a 19.32 running low/mid 9.8 guy in comparison is trivial

                          if this concept is too difficult to grasp for you, stick to drivelling on about high-school sprinters & leave the thinking to others...

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by eldrick
                            nonsense

                            his 400 ability worsened by 0.1s between '95 & '96, but his 200m went from 19.79 to 19.32

                            his "amazing" speed-endurance of 43.39 coud only get him 19.79 but worse speed-endurance of 43.49 in '96 got him 19.32 ?!

                            even you with your limited neuronal capacity shoud understand it wasn't the 400 ability that got him 19.32 - his speed-endurance was worse in '96 than '95

                            what got him 9.32 was near/at wr ability over 100m in '96

                            i'd have made bailey a 4/5 favorite & mj 5/4 over 100m

                            we've just seen a 10.03 guy go to 9.6 in 1y - the concept of a 19.32 running low/mid 9.8 guy in comparison is trivial

                            if this concept is too difficult to grasp for you, stick to drivelling on about high-school sprinters & leave the thinking to others...
                            So wrong on so many levels. I don't even know where to begin to tear all that silliness down. Speaking of grasping concepts give it a shot..ok? I'm talking HS? Or mentioned Mike Marsh? Dude you're losing it...ok? Now pay attention...

                            Anyone running a sub 43.50 has speed endurance in adundance, we don't need to break it down to 43.3 or 43.4...only you wouldn't know that. MJ..always...had the superior.."speed endurance" ...in every 200m he was in. He didn't need 9.8 speed to beat 9.8 sprinters in a 200m, his endurance took care of that.

                            If you want to look totally clownish keep talking about MJ vs Bailey, trust me that isn't helping your cause.....ok? Now you're looking comical......trust me! Don't make it to where I start feeling guilty tossing you around, be competitive...ok?

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Just to let you two guys know, my finger is very tired from scrolling down through all the above verbiage.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by dukehjsteve
                                Just to let you two guys know, my finger is very tired from scrolling down through all the above verbiage.
                                I hear ya. This is getting rather weird now. Now we have MJ challenging Donovan Bailey in the 100m because eldrick still can't understand common sense......hahaha!!!!!!!

                                Comment

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