What if?

[Texas]

What if?

Stone Johnson had lived. An Olympic (1960) sprinter in that KC Cheifs backfield. Yes he was a running back and would have been the fastest athlete to ever line up in an NFL backfield.

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Mel Pender and Trenton Jackson had ran on that 1964 Olympic 4x1 team. Injuries did them in.

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Jim Golliday is healthy in 52/56?

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Hal Davis runs in the 1944 Olympics.

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Eulace Peacock runs in the 1936 Olympics.

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Bob Hayes sticks around until 1968.

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Bobby Mitchell remains a Cleveland Brown.

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Tommie Smith sticks around until 1972.

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Jesse Owens-Eulace Peacock-Mack Robinson-Ralph Metcalfe run the 4x1 at the 36 Olympics.

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Howard Drew isn't injured at the 1916 Olympics (or was it 1912?)

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Eric Liddell runs the 100m in 1924.

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Charlie Greene-Jimmy Hines-John Carlos-Tommie Smith run the 4x1 at the 68 Olympics.

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Usain Bolt had started off running the 100m.

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Tyson Gay had been healthy at Bejing.

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Asafa Powell didn't have big-race-itist.

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Deion Sanders had stuck with track.

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Wylie Coyote finally caught the Roadrunner.

[bijanc]

Que Sera...

Jimmy Carter hadn't boycotted in Skeets' year.

Woody Strode had entered the 1940 U.S. decathlon trials as originally planned (in his memoir, he says Bob Richards could beat him in all the speed events, but he usually bested Richards in the power events- and quotes a contemporary news source that mentions them as being comparable in talent)

Jackie Robinson focuses on the long jump before Mr. Rickey taps him.

Steve Williams had a healthy Oly year.

The U.S. used King Carl as a 4 x 100 anchor in Atlanta.

Jimmy Brown focused on the decathlon.

The Jamaican women got the baton around in Beijing. 400 m/ relay style.

[Texas]

The U.S. used King Carl as a 4 x 100 anchor in Atlanta.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Canada did not face our "A" team. If they had of they lose.

Let's run the race...

Drummond gives the USA a meter as he did.
Leroy Burrell..,.gains a meter on Gilbert (right here is where the race was lost, Gilbert destroyed Harden. He does not detroy Leroy Burrell. Who was probably the best second leg ever)
Mitchell...gains a meter on Surin
Now Lewis has three meters on Bailey. Yes Bailey gains on him all the way but comes up a bit short.

USA WINS!

[tandfman]

Re: Que Sera...

Jimmy Carter hadn't boycotted in Skeets' year.

Or Don Paige's, or Stanley Floyd's, or . . . .

[CookyMonzta]

Re: Que Sera...

What if Evelyn had run the 400 for a full season? Even in 1986 (age 29), when she ran 10.88/21.97, I thought she was capable of running 48.xx, and probably challenge Koch, who ran 48.22 that year (her last). Evelyn's PR was 51.08, run in the SEMIS of the 1984 USATF Champs before Valerie Brisco ran an AR 49.83 in the final. Obviously Evelyn didn't want to take a chance of hurting herself by running in the final (she nearly tore her ham in the OT 200 heats and dropped out), because if it weren't an Olympic year she surely would have gone 48 in that USATF final.

[scratchman]

The U.S. used King Carl as a 4 x 100 anchor in Atlanta.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Canada did not face our "A" team. If they had of they lose.

Let's run the race...

Drummond gives the USA a meter as he did.
Leroy Burrell..,.gains a meter on Gilbert (right here is where the race was lost, Gilbert destroyed Harden. He does not detroy Leroy Burrell. Who was probably the best second leg ever)
Mitchell...gains a meter on Surin
Now Lewis has three meters on Bailey. Yes Bailey gains on him all the way but comes up a bit short.

USA WINS!

I don't know about 3rd, man.
Surin ran that thing like a man posessed. If that had been the '92 Mitchell, I'd have no doubt. But that was one of the best bends I'd ever seen. I know who woulda equalized it, tho.....MJ!!! The man simply could NOT be denied in '96. He woulda handled Surin. But I do believe the race wouldve been waaaaaaaay closer with what you have. King Carl takes no prisoners on anchor. Hell, I don't know if Bailey gains on Carl. Why?? Cuz at the '97 Texas Relays, he didnt gain an inch on him, and he quit halfway down. Grabbed the hammy, remember? Tell me something, "if" they were on the same relay, who'd you anchor with...Carl or Bob Hayes?
Ewwwwww! :shock: :shock:

[Texas]

The U.S. used King Carl as a 4 x 100 anchor in Atlanta.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Canada did not face our "A" team. If they had of they lose.

Let's run the race...

Drummond gives the USA a meter as he did.
Leroy Burrell..,.gains a meter on Gilbert (right here is where the race was lost, Gilbert destroyed Harden. He does not detroy Leroy Burrell. Who was probably the best second leg ever)
Mitchell...gains a meter on Surin
Now Lewis has three meters on Bailey. Yes Bailey gains on him all the way but comes up a bit short.

USA WINS!

I don't know about 3rd, man.
Surin ran that thing like a man posessed. If that had been the '92 Mitchell, I'd have no doubt. But that was one of the best bends I'd ever seen. I know who woulda equalized it, tho.....MJ!!! The man simply could NOT be denied in '96. He woulda handled Surin. But I do believe the race wouldve been waaaaaaaay closer with what you have. King Carl takes no prisoners on anchor. Hell, I don't know if Bailey gains on Carl. Why?? Cuz at the '97 Texas Relays, he didnt gain an inch on him, and he quit halfway down. Grabbed the hammy, remember? Tell me something, "if" they were on the same relay, who'd you anchor with...Carl or Bob Hayes?
Ewwwwww! :shock: :shock:

If you recall Mitchell was the top American in 96 and a monster on a third leg of a 4x1. Probably the best ever at that position. Surin was only a 10.0 guy in 96 and while a great 3rd leg himself I don't see him on a par with Mitchell.

Bailey wasn't really all that in 1996. He lost more than he won, he just ran a great 100m when it counted the most, so I can see where you're coming from. Lewis was at the end of his career in 96 and not what he once was. I can see Bailey full of confidence with the advantage in 96. Lewis would need a bit of a lead, no not much but a little. I see him getting that and hanging on. Yes in his prime he smokes Bailey on a 4x1 anchor all things being equal.

Bob Hayes in my opinion is the fastest human to ever walk the face of the earth. Put in back in 1936 and he blows Jesse Owens away, but him in 1988 and he dusts Carl Lewis. But him in 2008 and he...hmmm.....could Bob Hayes run a 9.67 with all the advantages he'd have over 1964..hell yes! I'd have to go with Hayes over anybody on a 4x1 anchor all things being equal.

Hayes was 5-11 190 pounds. He was as physically imposing as anyone. All he'd need is modern training techniques, nutrition and those speedy tracks.

[eldrick]

no disrepect to hayes, but bolt wouda gone 9.60/9.61 if he hadn't done his dance & got a proper RT of 0.12/0.13s instead of the 1/2-asleep ~ 0.16 he actually got

that means hayes wouda had to be in at least high-9.5 basic shape in peking to beat bolt

the tag of "fastest human who ever lived" seems firmly in bolt's court...

[eldrick]

bailey's relay leg is under-rated

he ran 8.95 & was celebrating/easing off before the line

he certainly wouda been <8.9 if he'd run hard to the line

now, the anchor leg "wr" at the time was King's 8.85 from '92 og ( & 8.86 in '87 wc )

their is really nothing to split a prime King & bailey in '96 evdence on an anchor

[eldrick]

actually looking at bailey's anchor ( stick this at end of an url )

watch?v=u0g1dEiCtT4

he put his R hand up ~ 15m from the line but didn't seem to really slow

perhaps he wouda gone nearer 8.90 rather than 8.85, so a prime King may have had a fractional advantage, but i woudn't bet any money on it !

[Texas]

no disrepect to hayes, but bolt wouda gone 9.60/9.61 if he hadn't done his dance & got a proper RT of 0.12/0.13s instead of the 1/2-asleep ~ 0.16 he actually got

that means hayes wouda had to be in at least high-9.5 basic shape in peking to beat bolt

the tag of "fastest human who ever lived" seems firmly in bolt's court...

Not going to debate/argue Bullet Bob vs Lightnin' Bolt. I do get a bit "personal" when talking Hayes, he was my first sports..ah..hmm.hero ops:

I do understand your position on this. It really is hard to imagine anyone hanging with Bolt. How about if anyone could it would be a 2008 Bob Hayes?

[Texas]

bailey's relay leg is under-rated

he ran 8.95 & was celebrating/easing off before the line

he certainly wouda been <8.9 if he'd run hard to the line

now, the anchor leg "wr" at the time was King's 8.85 from '92 og ( & 8.86 in '87 wc )

their is really nothing to split a prime King & bailey in '96 evdence on an anchor

Carl Lewis was the superior sprinter to Donovan Bailey, not even debatable. If you recall he beat him in 96 on that Atlanta track. Yes it's not a big thang and yes in 96 Bailey was faster. Not that much faster however and with a bit of a lead Lewis would have hung on. Lewis in his prime beats Bailey in 96 in the 100 and the relay starting out even.

[eldrick]

the vids show hayes was a natural powerhouse ( but surprisingly long legs - almost gazelle-like ! i was expecting tree-trunks, but they aren't quite ! )

my gut feeling was if King had actually done some proper weight-training in the '80s, he wouda possibly have matched hayes

he ran 8.86 anchor in '87, when he was in 9.93 shape

rough rule i get from seeing a lot of anchor splits & comparing to open 100s is that the flying leg takes away the start &

your anchor + 1.00s

is ~ what you shoud run in an open 100 with excellent start

that indicates King couda gone ~ 9.86 in '87 if he'd developed a proper start thru heavy weight-training

bit off-topic, but it's something of mild interest...

[eldrick]

Carl Lewis was the superior sprinter to Donovan Bailey, not even debatable. If you recall he beat him in 96 on that Atlanta track. Yes it's not a big thang and yes in 96 Bailey was faster. Not that much faster however and with a bit of a lead Lewis would have hung on. Lewis in his prime beats Bailey in 96 in the 100 and the relay starting out even.

worth remembering that bailey did have a pretty shitty start & pick-up in that 9.84wr & it was his animal charge that got him the win ( he was nearly 2m down on frankie at 30m !!! )

those splits are very hard to find, but i remeber seeing them a few years ago & it did indicate bailey couda gone 9.80/9.81 with a decent start/pick-up

his actual 9.84wr was far from perfect

i'm not sure i see a prime King beating him if bailey runs his best race

[Texas]

the vids show hayes was a natural powerhouse ( but surprisingly long legs - almost gazelle-like ! i was expecting tree-trunks, but they aren't quite ! )

my gut feeling was if King had actually done some proper weight-training in the '80s, he wouda possibly have matched hayes

he ran 8.86 anchor in '87, when he was in 9.93 shape

rough rule i get from seeing a lot of anchor splits & comparing to open 100s is that the flying leg takes away the start &

your anchor + 1.00s

is ~ what you shoud run in an open 100 with excellent start

that indicates King couda gone ~ 9.86 in '87 if he'd developed a proper start thru heavy weight-training

bit off-topic, but it's something of mild interest...

I struggle a bit with all that.."what should be ran because" The reason being we see so many different kinds of speed. A guy like Mel Pender who was only 5-5/5-6 was a great indoor man and a solid 100m man. He's not going to run the 4x4 and as far as I know he did nothing in the 200m. Then we have a guy like Tommie Smith who was better as the race got longer. What did he run the 60 in, did he ever run a 60?

There was a time when everyone was running a 5.9 indoor 60yder there must have been at least 15 WR holders. Guys most haven't even heard of...Sam Perry? Ever heard of Roscoe Cook out of Oregon? A 9.3WR! How about Southern U's Oliver Ford? A 10.0WR! Who saw that coming? How come a lot of those 5.9WR 's did nothin/or little in the 100? To say somebody should do this and that because of that and this....? We have to look at the individual, not some model of who he should be.

I ran track with a guy named David Rockwell. He was a 10.6 100yd guy in high school. Usually he'd take second or third in a meet then do something strange. If he was close on the anchor if the 4x1 he would run down whoever he ran against and was never caught if we were ahead. Yes guys who beat him in the 100 couldn't deal with him on a 4x1 anchor. What system, formula has situation?

You've got it down to robotics and I think more should be placed on the individuals involved.