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  • #76
    Originally posted by CookyMonzta
    Originally posted by skiboo
    Devers-Ottey Stuttgart '93
    Stecher-Boyle Munich 200 '72
    And of course, the legendary duels between Evelyn Ashford and Marlies Göhr. If there were any doubts as to who was the greatest, the 1984 race in Zürich ended that argument for good. I wish Evelyn had run a serious 400 before she retired. She surely would have gone 48-low, maybe even 47-high.
    Did it settle the argument, though? From reading the results in both Athletics Weekly and Track and Field News, Marlies Gohr had to run a qualifying round to get to the final, whereas Evelyn Ashford is not listed as having to do so. This makes it look like Gohr had to run an extra race, which hardly makes for a fair competition.

    Can anyone verify that Ashford had to qualify also?

    Comment


    • #77
      I don't see how any one race can be decisive in proving one athlete's superiority over another, when they had a close rivalry for a decade.
      Było smaszno, a jaszmije smukwijne...

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by catson52
        Note that quite a few of those who subsequently ran such times are highly suspect re "chemical help". And Ashford is certainly NOT suspect along those lines.
        I'm not sure which women you are referring to? Only two women have run sub 48 and while there is some documented evidence that Koch may have been doped what evidence is there that Kratochvilova was? In the low 48 category (which I take to be under 48.5?) then there's only Perec & Bryzgina. Is there any evidence against either of these women? The only other women under 49 are Kocembova, Freeman, Richards, Brisco-Hooks & Guevera.

        So of the 9 women who have run under 49, there is some documented evidence that one of these may have been doped. There are no other East german women under 49, so linking to to GDR 'methods' is a nonstarter. So what other associations do we have? Do we assume that times prior to random testing are suspect? In which case Ashford's best times came in that era too. Perec, Freeman, Richards & Guevera were all post-random testing.

        If we make claims that some are 'highly suspect' of chemical assistance, we have to provide the evidence of such. Something more concrete. As it stands there is no more evidence against any of those women than there is against Ashford.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by CookyMonzta
          Originally posted by skiboo
          Devers-Ottey Stuttgart '93
          Stecher-Boyle Munich 200 '72
          And of course, the legendary duels between Evelyn Ashford and Marlies Göhr. If there were any doubts as to who was the greatest, the 1984 race in Zürich ended that argument for good. I wish Evelyn had run a serious 400 before she retired. She surely would have gone 48-low, maybe even 47-high.
          I believe that the best ever dual was the 84 clash between Ashford and Gohr. I do not think that we will ever see such a dual as it was about politics (East vs. West) as it was about sport. But even from a pure sportive perspective this dual is (very) hard to bit.
          - Either Gohr or Ashford were ranked No. 1 in the world from 1977-1984
          - They were defiantly the best two sprinters in the world (and by a large margin) since 1979
          - Goer was better in 1977 – 1978 Ashford in 1979-1981 and then the balance shifted back to Gohr in 1982-1983
          - Gohr and Ashford hold all sub 11 times in the 70’ and almost all sub 10.9 (except Koch 10.83) until this dual
          - Ashford got injured in Helsinki (1983) while East Germany boycott the 84’ games, So it was three years without a serious clash
          - Before the clash Gohr said she can bit Ashford any place any time

          And for the race it self
          Gohr started like a bullet gaining about a meter on Ashford in the first 40m then Ashford starting closing the gap and around the 70m mark she close the gap and won by more than half a meter.
          Times:
          Ashford – 10.76WR an improvement of 0.16!! for her best non-altitude time.
          Gohr – 10.84 her second best effort (best 10.81) and an improvement of 0.1 on her best time outside of Germany

          In current day terms it will be like Bolt will win against Gay in Berlin and in 2011 Gay will win in London. Bolt out injured in 2013 & 2015 and they meet in 2016 and run 9.51 to 9.58

          Comment


          • #80
            If we rephrase catson's claim to read ``often suspected'', he does have a point,
            however: If we look at the top five (Koch, Krato, Perec, Bryzgina, Kocembova),
            the top two are among the most often named and Bryzgina/Kocembova fall under
            the east-european eighties shadow. If we look at 100m runners who have
            proven similar potential in the 400, the most notable names include Jones
            (convicted) and FloJo (oft suspected). (100m runners being the natural
            comparison for Ashford.)

            While it would be wrong to say that, e.g., specifically Koch was a cheater,
            chances are that several of these ladies were.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by imaginative
              the top two are among the most often named and Bryzgina/Kocembova fall under the east-european eighties shadow.
              I'm sorry, but to lump all east-european countries together just reeks of ignorance. There is absolutely no more evidence that east-european countries were doping anymore than western european countries & the USA were. There's just as much chance that Ashford was cheating, as there was that Kratochvilova was, or Bryzgina was. You say eastern european countries were cheating; some say the US system was rife with drugs. To try and paint Ashford as some kind of heroine for the free world, battling against the drugged-up east, as some have done, is ludicrous, especially in light of the fact that she ran 10.76 in 1984, 25 years ago, and only two American women have beaten that time since, one of whom died before her 40th birthday and the other being a convicted doper.

              Better to treat all athletes that have not failed a test the same unless there is evidence otherwise.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Alexm
                Originally posted by imaginative
                the top two are among the most often named and Bryzgina/Kocembova fall under the east-european eighties shadow.
                I'm sorry, but to lump all east-european countries together just reeks of ignorance. There is absolutely no more evidence that east-european countries were doping anymore than western european countries & the USA were. There's just as much chance that Ashford was cheating, as there was that Kratochvilova was, or Bryzgina was. You say eastern european countries were cheating; some say the US system was rife with drugs. To try and paint Ashford as some kind of heroine for the free world, battling against the drugged-up east, as some have done, is ludicrous, especially in light of the fact that she ran 10.76 in 1984, 25 years ago, and only two American women have beaten that time since, one of whom died before her 40th birthday and the other being a convicted doper.

                Better to treat all athletes that have not failed a test the same unless there is evidence otherwise.
                The attempt was not to paint all East Europeans as possible cheats and all US runners as squeaky clean. I take your point that one's suspicions are raised by times/distances/heights that are way ahead of their time. The fact that the best times in the women's 100/200/400 have been somewhat "regressive" over the past 20 or so years, looks bad. Either today's runners are not up to par (excellence) or something was rotten in the state of Denmark, starting somewhere in the 70s or 80s (or even earlier?). It would appear that by today's standards, 10.75-10.85, sub 21.9 and sub 49.0 are all excellent performances.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Alexm
                  Originally posted by imaginative
                  the top two are among the most often named and Bryzgina/Kocembova fall under the east-european eighties shadow.
                  [...]You say eastern european countries were cheating; some say the US system was rife with drugs. [...]
                  No: I say that eastern european athletes from that era are
                  often _suspected_ of cheating---a very different issue.

                  Note that I also point to FloJo as someone who is often
                  _suspected_.

                  Some of these suspicions may be false, others may be true.
                  When we look at the aggregates, however, it is highly unlikely
                  that they were all clean.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Rog
                    Originally posted by CookyMonzta
                    Originally posted by skiboo
                    Devers-Ottey Stuttgart '93
                    Stecher-Boyle Munich 200 '72
                    And of course, the legendary duels between Evelyn Ashford and Marlies Göhr. If there were any doubts as to who was the greatest, the 1984 race in Zürich ended that argument for good. I wish Evelyn had run a serious 400 before she retired. She surely would have gone 48-low, maybe even 47-high.
                    Did it settle the argument, though? From reading the results in both Athletics Weekly and Track and Field News, Marlies Gohr had to run a qualifying round to get to the final, whereas Evelyn Ashford is not listed as having to do so. This makes it look like Gohr had to run an extra race, which hardly makes for a fair competition.

                    Can anyone verify that Ashford had to qualify also?
                    What qualifying round? No such animal that I ever heard of, or read; and I doubt they would have forced that upon someone with a 10.81 PR while giving a bye to a 10.79 (A) sprinter, even if she was the WR holder. Or vice versa, for that matter.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by CookyMonzta
                      Originally posted by Rog
                      Originally posted by CookyMonzta
                      Originally posted by skiboo
                      Devers-Ottey Stuttgart '93
                      Stecher-Boyle Munich 200 '72
                      And of course, the legendary duels between Evelyn Ashford and Marlies Göhr. If there were any doubts as to who was the greatest, the 1984 race in Zürich ended that argument for good. I wish Evelyn had run a serious 400 before she retired. She surely would have gone 48-low, maybe even 47-high.
                      Did it settle the argument, though? From reading the results in both Athletics Weekly and Track and Field News, Marlies Gohr had to run a qualifying round to get to the final, whereas Evelyn Ashford is not listed as having to do so. This makes it look like Gohr had to run an extra race, which hardly makes for a fair competition.

                      Can anyone verify that Ashford had to qualify also?
                      What qualifying round? No such animal that I ever heard of, or read; and I doubt they would have forced that upon someone with a 10.81 PR while giving a bye to a 10.79 (A) sprinter, even if she was the WR holder. Or vice versa, for that matter.
                      From memory (I'm in work now so can't check the magazine itself) Track and Field News lists qualifying efforts for everyone in that race with the exception of Ashford. This makes me wonder if everyone else had to run an extra race but her, so I was hoping someone reading this site, possibly someone like GH who may actually have been there, could throw some light on the matter.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        It is known that PEDs cause hormonal imbalance in women and are banned.
                        It is known that pregnancy causes similar (although temporary) effects.
                        It is known that due to the above benefits, some soviet female athletes were induced into this condition temporarily (followed by an abortion) to gain artificial (but also 'fair' / 'natural'?) advantage.
                        It is known that Ashford was pregnant at the time of the Zurich race against Göhr.

                        Discuss.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          So now Ashford was the one with a hormonal advantage over Gohr? :roll:

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Alexm
                            There's just as much chance that Ashford was cheating, as there was that Kratochvilova was.
                            Say something more stupid. I dare you.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Marvin Gaye and Diana Ross...oh duels...not duets.
                              on the road

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Speedfirst
                                Marvin Gaye and Diana Ross...oh duels...not duets.
                                I almost said peanut butter and jelly, but that's a duet too. Darn!
                                If you're ever walking down the beach and you see a girl dressed in a bikini made out of seashells, and you pick her up and hold her to your ear, you can hear her scream.

                                Comment

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