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05-14-2003, 01:53 AM

Re: track History

Man, that's detailed. But at least it gets away from the other history thread, with arguments over dirt tracks, and the Ryun fans arguing with the Ryun hater Squires.

05-14-2003, 02:45 AM

Re: track History

Without doing any serious research on this, here are some random thoughts:

I'd put Oldfield higher and Timmermann lower in the shot. If you include Cierpinski, you must include Ben Johnson, etc

I wouldn't include Bannister or Beamon - take away their respective great performances and they aren't strong candidates

I'd put Owens (lj), Fredericks (200m) Edwards (tj) Schult (dt) Conley (tj) higher
O'Brien and Thorpe should be above Jenner
Powell above Pedroso; no worse than 3rd all-time
Myricks above Bell
I'd put Paddock and Christie in the top (100m) and take Hary out
I'd include Mal Whitfield (400m), Steve Cram (1500m) Harald Schmid (400h), Patrick Sjoberg (HJ)

Just my thoughts for what they are worth. Nice material.

**BisonHurdler** · 05-14-2003, 04:24 AM

Re: track History

I wouldn't include Bannister or Beamon -
>take away their respective great performances and
>they aren't strong candidates

Well, just for the sake of argument

, i believe Beamon was completely undefeated during his '68 season.

05-14-2003, 04:46 AM

Re: track History

Not to put too fine a point on it, but isn't being undefeated like being pregnant? As in, you is or you ain't, no "completely" required.

**BisonHurdler** · 05-14-2003, 04:54 AM

Re: track History

Are you the kid doing the same thing over on letsrun?

**jsquire** · 05-14-2003, 04:06 PM

Re: track History

>Man, that's detailed. But at least it gets away
>from the other history thread, with arguments
>over dirt tracks, and the Ryun fans arguing with
>the Ryun hater Squires.

I don't hate Ryun. I just don't think he's ready for sainthood. He had two great seasons, then won an Olympic silver medal, and that's all he did. I don't think that qualifies him as "The Greatest Miler That God Could Create", but I suppose my view would be different if Ryun had been my boyhood idol. I base my subjective evaluations of greatness on career accomplishments, and Ryun's are roughly equal to at least half a dozen of history's milers -- and despite the fact that Ryun was clearly better than Keino for a short period, Keino simply has more career accomplishments.

As far as evaluations of talent, I've coached long enough to know that when you talk about someone's talent, it's because they didn't fulfill it. No one talks about Al Oerter's talent, instead they talk about four gold medals. (The baseball coach next door, who has coached two state champs and one national champ, has a sign that says "A lot of players have 'potential' written on their tombstones. It means they didn't do anything.")

Finally, it's Squire, not Squires. There's only one of me.

**jsquire** · 05-14-2003, 04:17 PM

Re: track History

>My Men's All Time Top Ten

100-1.Bob Hayes
>2.Carl Lewis 3.Jim Hines 4.Jessie
Owens 5.Bobby
>Morrow 6.Maurice Greene 7.Donovan
Bailey 8.Armin
>Hary 9.Valeriy Boroz 10.Eddie
Tolan

On what grounds are you making these rankings? I'll simply quote someone else -- LA Times trackwriter Maxwell Stiles ranked history's greatest sprnters in the mid-1950s, and he had Morrow, Davis and Metcalfe all ahead of Owens. He picked a #1 man for each year in both the 100 and 200, and Owens was #1 only in 1936. I might be accused of heresy (or even being an "Owens hater") but I think he's highly overrated in the 100.

On the other hand, I think he is underrated in the 200 and very underrated in the long jump. He jumped 21'11" in the seventh grade! I might add that I've been designated the official historian of Ohio track & field by the state coaches' association, so I'm hardly an objective observer.

In the long jump, I think you overlooked William DeHart Hubbard. He was the world's top jumper each year from 1921 to 1926. In "Quest for Gold", Bill Mallon and Ian Buchanan called him "undoubtedly the greatest long jumper of the pre-Owens era". Again, he was from Cincinatti, so I'm a bit biased.

**BisonHurdler** · 05-14-2003, 04:30 PM

Re: track History

I may be a bit biased, but i would probably put Allen Johnson as the #1 hurdler, and i know several fellow hurdlers who agree. Certainly if he had been completely healthy in 2000 and had won the gold in Sydney, there would be no question. Right now, Kingdom's largest feat, i suppose you could say, was his two golds. Had AJ equaled THAT, he'd be far ahead of Kingdom overall, easily. Look at the all-time lists (i know that doesn't matter much, especially when comparing him to hurdlers of decades past, but in terms of comparing him to the semi-current Kingdom, i'd say it works). AJ has a ton of the top times.

AJ also crushes Colin Jackson in terms of all-time head-to-head battles. Add to that his World Championships, indoors and out, the fact that he twice agonizingly came within 0.01 seconds of Jackson's world record in the same summer, and that he broke Kingdom's OR in Atlanta, and i gotta give the nod to AJ.

Or at the very LEAST, give him the edge over Kingdom. Perhaps some of you could make a case for someone like Dillard or Foster, but i still say AJ is #1. Nehemiah may have been able to take that honor, had he actually stuck with the sport, and had the US not boycotted Moscow.

**tandfman** · 05-14-2003, 04:43 PM

Re: track History

>I may be a bit biased, but i would probably put
Allen Johnson as the #1 hurdler<

I've seen all of those guys except for Towns, and my vote would be for Nehemiah. Of course, I'm voting on the basis of who was the best, not who won the most significatn races. I think Nehemian would have beaten all of those guys. If it weren't for the Olympic boycott, he would have won the gold in 1980 for sure, and if he hadn't switched to the NFL, I think the world record would be in the 12.80's and he'd still be the record holder. Behind Nehemiah, I'd go with Dillard, Johnson, Jackson, and Kingdom to round out my top 5.

**BisonHurdler** · 05-14-2003, 05:04 PM

Re: track History

>and if he hadn't
>switched to the NFL, I think the world record
>would be in the 12.80's and he'd still be the
>record holder.

Then again, if AJ hadn't crashed hurdle number 10, the stats clearly show he would've run about 12.85.

**BisonHurdler** · 05-14-2003, 05:05 PM

Re: track History

Check that, i meant 12.80.

**racewalker** · 05-14-2003, 05:15 PM

Re: track History

If you are so inclined, I'd love to hear how you arrived at the 20k & 50k walk rankings.

**jsquire** · 05-14-2003, 05:16 PM

Re: track History

Just to throw out some data to support the argument about Nehemiah . . .

Is there another (men's) running event where the current WR has changed as little in 22 years as the 110 hurdles?

**parkerclay** · 05-14-2003, 09:00 PM

Re: track History

400 meters..Evans, Reynolds & MJ

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