US second place but a 4x880 WR

[wineturtle]

Can someone tell me more or linkme...
Sept 1960 US -Commonwealth dualmeet
US team of Tom Murphy,Ernie Cunliffe, Jerry Siebert and ?? gets WR 4x880 behind a mixed BritEmpire team ( with Kerr?Snell?Delany?) since multinational teams can not hold WRs.
thanks

[dukehjsteve]

You made me dig out my 9/60 T&FN issue. Full article on page 27. Headline is " Snell Runs 1:44.8 r . "

London 9/14 2 Mile Relay

BC team was Tony Blue 1:51.0, George Kerr 1:51.9, Tom Farrell, 1:50.3, Peter Snell 1:44.8 Winning time 7:18.0

US team Ernie Cunliffe 1:51.2, Tom Murphy 1:52.5,Jack Yerman 1:49.1, Jerry Siebert 1:46.6 , US time WR 7:19.4

[wineturtle]

Walt Murphy writes:

This is what I wrote for my "This Day in T&F" series:

The highlight of this post-Olympic meet in London, between the U.S. and a team from the British Commonwealth, was the 2-mile relay. Ernie Cunliffe(1:51.2) and U.S. Trials champion Tom Murphy(1:52.5) held their own on the first two “tactical” legs against Tony Blue (Australia/1:51.1) and George Kerr (Jamaica/1:51.9), but their splits were far off their respective personal bests of 1:46.6 and 1:46.7. 1/4-miler Jack Yerman’s 1:49.1 3rd leg put the U.S. into the lead over Great Britain’s Tom Farrell, who split 1:50.3. Jerry Siebert, recovered from the illness that slowed him in Rome, sped his first lap in a quick 50.8, with Olympic 800 champion Peter Snell (New Zealand) in hot pursuit. The two went stride-for-stride until the final straightaway, when Snell pulled away from Siebert(1:46.6) to give the Commonwealth team the win. Snell’s anchor split was a sensational 1:44.8, which was far superior to the current world record for 800-meters(1:45.7).. The winning time of 7:18.0 was well under the world record of 7:20.9, but, since the team was comprised of runners from different countries, the mark was unacceptable for record purposes. The U.S., which ran 7:19.4, got credit for thw new world record, which was some consolation to Cunliffe, Murphy, and Siebert, who were all eliminated in the semi-finals of the 800 at the Rome Olympics. Yerman and Siebert were members of the University of California team that held the previous World Record.[/b]

[gh]

Walt Murphy writes:

This is what I wrote for my "This Day in T&F" series:.....The winning time of 7:18.0 was well under the world record of 7:20.9, but, since the team was comprised of runners from different countries, the mark was unacceptable for record purposes. ....

This is an interesting bit of history. I see nothing in the IAAF rules of the time regarding national composition of relay teams. Note also that two years later Oregon had its 4xM mark ratified as a WR with a mixed Canadian/U.S. squad.

Similarly, Oregon had a US/Can 4x1 set a ratified WR that year, and both UCLA (US/Can/Nigeria) and USC (US/Jamaica) had ratified 4x1s in 1967.

I believe it was the next year that the homologous-team rule was formally instituted.

[rasb]

gh, Was that Don Domansky, as the "CAN" part of the 1967 UCLA team?
I knew he was fast, but not aware he shared the World Record in the 4 x 100.

[gh]

the pride of Thunder Bay

[rasb]

Awesome 400 metre runner on the 4 x 400 m. He was rumoured to have nipped under 45.0 on the relay - not bad for a white guy from Thunder Bay,
over 40 years ago. Can anyone confirm that actually happened?

[rhymans]

Domansky ran 44.7 for a Commonwealth team (3:01.7) at the Coliseum in '67, almost catching Lee Evans (45.0), who anchored the US team (3:01.6)

Athletics Weekly reported on the 4 x 880 run at the 1960 Empire and Commonwealth - USA meeting, noting that "Snell..was clocked by Mel Watman and Martin James at 1:44.9..after a first quarter in 50 dead. The composite Commonwealth team cannot take the record achieved so easily, but the American team of Cunliffe, Murphy, Yerman and Siebert will with their 7:19.4". So the rule about mixed nations was in place at the time. The IAAF did not pick up on the Oregon 4x1 mile squad when that record was ratified. It was the first big meet I ever attended, and it took place on a cold wet evening. Snell would have been 2-3 seconds quicker on a warm clear evening on a good synthetic track

[Vault-emort]

Did the Empire v USA meet of 1952 also see another disallowed WR in the women's 4x220 with South Africans and Australians??

[rhymans]

Quite correct - and Athletics Weeklwy reported as ..."1:38.7 (World Record cannot be claimed because a composite team)"

[Walt Murphy]

Walt Murphy writes:

This is what I wrote for my "This Day in T&F" series:.....The winning time of 7:18.0 was well under the world record of 7:20.9, but, since the team was comprised of runners from different countries, the mark was unacceptable for record purposes. ....

This is an interesting bit of history. I see nothing in the IAAF rules of the time regarding national composition of relay teams. Note also that two years later Oregon had its 4xM mark ratified as a WR with a mixed Canadian/U.S. squad.

Similarly, Oregon had a US/Can 4x1 set a ratified WR that year, and both UCLA (US/Can/Nigeria) and USC (US/Jamaica) had ratified 4x1s in 1967.

I believe it was the next year that the homologous-team rule was formally instituted.

Well, I've seen the plaque my cousin (Tom Murphy) received to commemorate the record. And the mark is also listed in the IAAF Progression of World Records book. But it is strange that the 1962 Oregon 4xmile mark was accepted.

[cullman]

Domansky ran 44.7 for a Commonwealth team (3:01.7) at the Coliseum in '67, almost catching Lee Evans (45.0), who anchored the US team (3:01.6)

01 July 2007

...which gives me an excuse to put in a vote for one of my top five favourite 4 X 400s...USA - British Commonwealth Dual Meet Los Angeles.07.09.1967

Tommie Smith trotting and toying with Gary Eddy through the first 350 meters of his leg. Smith had rebuilt a small lead and handed off to Lee Evans. Evans tied up badly in the stretch and was nearly passed by Don Domansky of Canada.

Tommie was grinning in the post-race interview while Evans huffed n' puffed and said that he would have killed Smith if he wasn't so exhausted at the end of the race.

http://www.apulanta.fi/matti/yu/alltime/

3:01.6: Vince Matthews, Jim Kemp, Tommie Smith, Lee Evans

3:01.7: Clifton Forbes (JAM), Daniel Rudisha (KEN), Gary Eddy (AUS), Don Domansky (CAN)

c(anadian)man :P

It was broadcast on CBC back in 1967!

cman

[dj]

I'd have to check the exact wording of the pre-1962 rules, but there was a clause along the lines of teams having to be "regularly-constituted" (I believe that was the expression.)

In other words, a multi-national college team or club team could set a WR, but an all-star team along the lines of the British Commonwealth teams that were organized infrequently and which did not regularly compete as a unit did not qualify.

I don't know where or how the lines were drawn over "regularly constituted."

[Vault-emort]

In other words, a multi-national college team or club team could set a WR, but an all-star team along the lines of the British Commonwealth teams that were organized infrequently and which did not regularly compete as a unit did not qualify.

Interesting and comprehend your meaning. but the definition of 'organized infrequently/did not regularly compete as unit' would apply to most Australian national teams - even today!!

Also (again going from memory) did a US college team involving Don Quarrie set a ratified world 4x200 rec in the early 70s? (suggesting any rule change may have come even later).

[El Toro]

A point of very minor interest (mostly for bambam), is that Tony Blue of the Commonwealth team, later became an orthopedic surgeon.

On a point of even less (or most likely, no) interest is that he once extracted a large chunk of floating bone from under my patella tendon.