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Is Sydney MAREE a paria or what ?...

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  • #16
    Re: Is Sydney MAREE a paria or what ?...

    Let's not forget that Maree, in spite of having his citizenship expedited, showed no alligence to anyone other than himself, then showing up to the 84 games lame, when a more deserving Chuck Aragon -- who was tan, rested and ready-- was waiting in the wings.

    I hippyland they call that bad karma, man...

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    • #17
      Re: Is Sydney MAREE a paria or what ?...

      >Let's not forget that Maree, in spite of having his citizenship expedited,
      >showed no alligence to anyone other than himself, then showing up to the 84
      >games lame, when a more deserving Chuck Aragon -- who was tan, rested and
      >ready-- was waiting in the wings.

      I hippyland they call that bad karma,
      >man...

      ---Or perhaps an injured athlete not willing to give up on their Olympic dream and the significance of what their participation would mean to the young Blacks of their birth-country until the injury proves to be definitively beyond hope of treatment success, which then happens to be too late for the fourth-place person to move up.
      BTW, fourth place IS fourth-place. You want to go for sure, finish in the top three. Personal responsibility, 1980´s no one owes you anything mentality, etc. Remember?

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      • #18
        Re: Is Sydney MAREE a paria or what ?...

        > Personal
        >responsibility, 1980´s no one owes you anything mentality, etc. Remember?
        That must be your warped mentality.

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        • #19
          Re: Is Sydney MAREE a paria or what ?...

          >> Personal
          >responsibility, 1980´s no one owes you anything mentality, etc.
          >Remember?
          That must be your warped mentality.

          No. My sarcasm about the mentality of the eighties. I thought you were competing back then?

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          • #20
            Re: Is Sydney MAREE a paria or what ?...

            your point?

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            • #21
              Re: Is Sydney MAREE a paria or what ?...

              >your point?
              That Maree's actions weren't anything out of the ordinary, especially once money came into the picture. Since you competed back then, and had done some road racing at that, you should remember how it was. I can see Maree having a better reason for hanging on until too late than most would...fighting for years to be eligible, etc. What about Rodgers hurting his foot in 76---was that too late to let the fourth-placer go? Or Cummings with his alergies in 84? They didn't do what you seem to think Maree should have. (Your sentiment may be good, but no one did it.)

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              • #22
                Re: Is Sydney MAREE a paria or what ?...

                Don't forget about Tuttle.

                Yes, I believe they all should have given up their spots. It would be the right thing. Everyone, including yourself, would know they made the Olympic Team. That can never be taken away.

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                • #23
                  Re: Is Sydney MAREE a paria or what ?...

                  >Everyone, including yourself, would
                  >know they made the Olympic Team. That can never >be taken away.

                  Absolutely. It was their choice, and I will defend that, but had they done as you suggested, my respect for them would have only gotten deeper.

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                  • #24
                    You decide. 10 years in a South African prison. That can't be a nice place.

                    http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1 ... newslett=1

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                    • #25
                      ha, well, that would explain it.

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                      • #26
                        A side note: Maree was 5th in Seoul, if I remember correctly.

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                        • #27
                          Malmo, thanks once again for inserting the perspective of someone who was there at the time. I know you catch a lot of grief on here for your plain-spoken (blunt? ) delivery. Nevertheless, I appreciate your comments. Of course, you have a way to go before coming up with an anecdote as interesting having Steve Ovett puking in your hotel bathtub. :lol:

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                          • #28
                            There has been both bad use of statistics, and bad statistics, in this thread.
                            Maree did indeed have three times under 13:15, two of those at 13:13.84 and 13:14.62. Kennedy had 18 (not 17) - and has 14 sub-13:10's, all ahead of Goucher's 13:10.00 (not 13:11) which is the fifth best American performer.
                            Goucher is fifth because both Lagat and Tegenkamp (who had decent runs in US uniforms today) are sub-13:05 guys who were omitted from the earlier list. That list also left off Webb (13:10.86) and Broe and Famiglietti (13:11's). This omitted depth might further the argument that Maree does not deserve tremendous credit in US 5k history.

                            But the bad use of stats seriously understated Maree's position in US 5k history. Until Kennedy's first sub-13:10 in 1994, Maree held 3 of the top 5 times in US history. Prior to Kennedy, he had four of the nine best US times, with five other men having one performance each, and Maree held the American record by 10.78 seconds. The slowest of those four marks (13:15.07) was closer to the world record when Maree retired than Kennedy's PR was to the world record in 1999. You cannot compare times from the 1980's to Kennedy because THE WORLD COMPLETELY CHANGED IN ZURICH IN 1995.
                            Here is a list of all the American men with more than two sub-13:15 times, and when they achieved their third mark:
                            Bob Kennedy (18) - 1994
                            Bernard Lagat (5) - 2006
                            Sydney Maree (3) - 1989
                            Tim Broe (3) - 2005
                            Adam Goucher (3) - 2006

                            No question, Kennedy ran far more high level 5000's, and was consistently good in them. Seeing his name in 14 of the first 18 positions on the US list, nine years after his last really good race, is amazing. But he never won one of those races, and only placed in the top three in four of them. I would take Kennedy on overall record. But a look at the all-time US list at 31Dec1992 would have one name in a dominant position.

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                            • #29
                              Marees appearances in international championships, including GP-Finals:

                              World Cup 1981: 1500m 5th 3:36.56
                              WCh 1983: 1500m 9th Sf 3:38.65
                              GP-Final 1985: 5000m 2nd 13:28.04
                              GP-Final 1986: 5000m 3rd 13:14.62
                              WCh 1987: 5000m 11th 13:33.78
                              GP-Final 1987: 5000m 2nd 13:29.73
                              GP-Final 1988: 1Mile 7th 3:59.07
                              OG 1988: 5000m 5th 13:23.69
                              WICh 1989: 1500m 4th 3:38.14
                              GP-Final 1989: 5000m 3rd 13:21.62

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                              • #30
                                He may not be a pariah, but he's now a jailbird :-(

                                See story on front page about fraud trial, 10-year-sentence (half suspended)

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