Lane stagger for 440 yd race

[DJ_Expanium]

I will be officiating a couple of relays (4x440 and 4x880) next week on a 440 yd track. And I was wondering if anyone knows the exact lane start marks from the finish line or what sites would have that information stating the correct marks for a 440 yd track? Any help I would gladly appreciate it.

[dukehjsteve]

Just in case youi cannot find any 440 yard track stagger info, I would suggest you take 400 meter track info ( assuming you have that) and increase the stagger distances by a factor of 1.005834. That's the ratio of distance of a 440 track versus the slightly smaller 400 meter track.

[rasb]

Re: Lane stagger for 440 yd race

I will be officiating a couple of relays (4x440 and 4x880) next week on a 440 yd track. And I was wondering if anyone knows the exact lane start marks from the finish line or what sites would have that information stating the correct marks for a 440 yd track? Any help I would gladly appreciate it.

You need to know the turn radius of the track. If you have this information, then you can calculate the 1 and 2 and 3 turn staggers for lanes outside of Lane One.

[Conor Dary]

Re: Lane stagger for 440 yd race

I will be officiating a couple of relays (4x440 and 4x880) next week on a 440 yd track. And I was wondering if anyone knows the exact lane start marks from the finish line or what sites would have that information stating the correct marks for a 440 yd track? Any help I would gladly appreciate it.

You need to know the turn radius of the track. If you have this information, then you can calculate the 1 and 2 and 3 turn staggers for lanes outside of Lane One.

Turn radius of the track? What the hell does that mean?

A track is 2 semi circles connected by 2 straights.

So, no matter what the track is, measure the width of a lane, say 1 yard. Then running in lane 2 is 1x2x3.14 = 6.28 yards longer than in lane 1 for one lap. Thus the lane 2 start is about 19 feet up the curse from the finish. Lane 3 is two x 19 feet, etc.

And I repeat this is true for any track.

[dukehjsteve]

re the above, do not forget that for a track with a raised edge, the stagger is less for lane 2 compared to lane 1. Then the differentials for 2 to 3, 3 to 4, etc. are all the same, but slightly more than the 1 to 2 differenttial.

[rasb]

Re: Lane stagger for 440 yd race

[quote=Conor Dary]

I will be officiating a couple of relays (4x440 and 4x880) next week on a 440 yd track. And I was wondering if anyone knows the exact lane start marks from the finish line or what sites would have that information stating the correct marks for a 440 yd track? Any help I would gladly appreciate it.

You need to know the turn radius of the track. If you have this information, then you can calculate the 1 and 2 and 3 turn staggers for lanes outside of Lane One.

Turn radius of the track? What the hell does that mean?

A track is 2 semi circles connected by 2 straights.

So, no matter what the track is, measure the width of a lane, say 1 yard. Then running in lane 2 is 1x2x3.14 = 6.28 yards longer than in lane 1 for one lap. Thus the lane 2 start is about 19 feet up the curse from the finish. Lane 3 is two x 19 feet, etc.

And I repeat this is true for any track.[/quote:15ppsv5w]

This is not true.
To survey and lay out a track properly, the length of the turn radius is an essential part of the equation. Depending on whether the track has a 35 metre radius, or a 42 metre radius, or somewhere in between usually, the length of each lane varies greatly, and so do the proper markings for the various staggers.

[dukehjsteve]

We are circling the essential request here. Does anyone disagree that IF he gets a proper 400 meter stagger table, with the proper turn radius, he can then just factor them up by the 1.005something figure I posted earlier, for correct 440 yard staggers ?

[Conor Dary]

Re: Lane stagger for 440 yd race

[quote=rasb]

I will be officiating a couple of relays (4x440 and 4x880) next week on a 440 yd track. And I was wondering if anyone knows the exact lane start marks from the finish line or what sites would have that information stating the correct marks for a 440 yd track? Any help I would gladly appreciate it.

You need to know the turn radius of the track. If you have this information, then you can calculate the 1 and 2 and 3 turn staggers for lanes outside of Lane One.

Turn radius of the track? What the hell does that mean?

A track is 2 semi circles connected by 2 straights.

So, no matter what the track is, measure the width of a lane, say 1 yard. Then running in lane 2 is 1x2x3.14 = 6.28 yards longer than in lane 1 for one lap. Thus the lane 2 start is about 19 feet up the curse from the finish. Lane 3 is two x 19 feet, etc.

And I repeat this is true for any track.

This is not true.
To survey and lay out a track properly, the length of the turn radius is an essential part of the equation. Depending on whether the track has a 35 metre radius, or a 42 metre radius, or somewhere in between usually, the length of each lane varies greatly, and so do the proper markings for the various staggers.[/quote:34ymb519]

I can see your grasp of elementary mathematics is say, elementary.

Take the two semicircles put them together. The radius of lane one is R. The distance run on the curves in lane 1 is 2xpxiR. The distance run in lane 2 is 2xpix(R+a) where a is the width of a lane.

Thus the amount lane 2 runs more than lane 1, for a complete lap, is

2 x pi x 2R + 2 x pia + 2S-2 xp ix 2R +2S =

2 x pi x A approx 6.3 x A

This is the distance that lane 2 runs farther than lane 1 for one complete lap. Therefore, if A is 1 yard, lane 2 starts 6.3 yards down the track, lane 3 12.6 etc,.

And as you can see the radius is irrelevant.

Q.E.D.

[rasb]

Re: Lane stagger for 440 yd race

[quote=Conor Dary][quote=rasb]

I will be officiating a couple of relays (4x440 and 4x880) next week on a 440 yd track. And I was wondering if anyone knows the exact lane start marks from the finish line or what sites would have that information stating the correct marks for a 440 yd track? Any help I would gladly appreciate it.

You need to know the turn radius of the track. If you have this information, then you can calculate the 1 and 2 and 3 turn staggers for lanes outside of Lane One.

Turn radius of the track? What the hell does that mean?

A track is 2 semi circles connected by 2 straights.

So, no matter what the track is, measure the width of a lane, say 1 yard. Then running in lane 2 is 1x2x3.14 = 6.28 yards longer than in lane 1 for one lap. Thus the lane 2 start is about 19 feet up the curse from the finish. Lane 3 is two x 19 feet, etc.

And I repeat this is true for any track.

This is not true.
To survey and lay out a track properly, the length of the turn radius is an essential part of the equation. Depending on whether the track has a 35 metre radius, or a 42 metre radius, or somewhere in between usually, the length of each lane varies greatly, and so do the proper markings for the various staggers.[/quote:yor1mk4w]

I can see your grasp of elementary mathematics is say, elementary.

Take the two semicircles put them together. The radius of lane one is R. The distance run on the curves in lane 1 is 2xpxiR. The distance run in lane 2 is 2xpix(R+a) where a is the width of a lane.

Thus the amount lane 2 runs more than lane 1, for a complete lap, is

2 x pi x 2R + 2 x pia + 2S-2 xp ix 2R +2S =

2 x pi x A approx 6.3 x A

This is the distance that lane 2 runs farther than lane 1 for one complete lap. Therefore, if A is 1 yard, lane 2 starts 6.3 yards down the track, lane 3 12.6 etc,.

And as you can see the radius is irrelevant.

Q.E.D.[/quote:yor1mk4w]


Wrong ! The radius is always relevant, because it determines the number of metres or yards that you are running on the curve, as compared to on the straight. And because a "properly" laid out track has the finish line right at the end of the straight/beginning of the curve, it is obvious that the radius of the turn will affect how many metres/yards that the various start lines and change over zones have to be around the curve, in order for each athlete in each lane to complete a 400 metre, or 440 yard, lap.
So in a lane 8, with a turn radius of 43 metres, as compared to a turn radius of 50 metres, are you suggesting that the start line for a 1/2/3 turn stagger event will be the same number of metres/yards from the finish line?
You are kidding, right?

[Kevin Richardson]

Rasb has a good point. Additionally, depending on the age of the track, it would be important to know the lane width. I am assuming that it will be 42", but just because the international organizations have agreed on standards, it does not mean that the contractor followed them to the letter.

[Conor Dary]

It is hard to argue with someone who has no clue what they are talking about. So I will make it simple one last time.

If the finish line is one the end of the home straight, then all eight runners will run the same distance on the straights.

So we can ignore the straights.

Thus we have two semicircles which put together make a circle!

So if all the runners start on the same radius, and go one lap, lane 2 will run an extra distance than lane 1 that is 2 x (R + w) x pi - 2 x R x pi = 2 x pi x w= S. Where w is the width of the lane.

Therefore lane 2 starts S distance up along the curve to run the same as lane 1. i.e. the stagger for the 440 or 400.

As you can see (but I doubt it) the radius has no relevance in our measuring. So measure the lane width mutliply by 6.28 measure this far from the finish to find the lane 2 stagger. For lane 3 add the same distance and so on. All very simple and fast.

One final note. tracks on measured in lane one slightly differently depending on whether there is a curb or not. But the above is good enough for anyone not contemplating a WR.

[nmzoo]

The radius of the turn is immaterial. A one-turn stagger (as is a 2-turn stagger or 3) on any size track is the same amount as long as the lanes are the same width. A one-turn stagger on a 200m indoor track with 36” lanes is exactly the same as on a 400m outdoor track with 36” lanes. Only the width of the lanes affects the stagger distance.

[tandfman]

Rasb has a good point. Additionally, depending on the age of the track, it would be important to know the lane width. I am assuming that it will be 42", but just because the international organizations have agreed on standards, it does not mean that the contractor followed them to the letter.

The international standard is 1.22 meters, or 48", not 42.

[DecFan]

Conor:
Your analysis would be right if the starting line were far enough back on the straightaway that the stagger for the outside lane was also on the straightaway. Then all athletes would run two complete turns, and thus in a 400m all runners would run two complete semi-circles. But since (on almost all tracks) runners in the outside lanes do not run two full semi-circles, rasb is correct.

Once when coaching HS in another country, our regional meet took place on a grass track that had to be newly-lined for each competition. Some idiot had lined the track with NEGATIVE staggers. A couple of 400m heats had been run (with the runners on the inside lane winning by huge amounts) before the organizer would listen to my protest and correct the problem. I don't think our revised staggers adjusted for the turn radius - but they were a lot closer to correct than the original ones!

[LopenUupunut]

Conor:
Your analysis would be right if the starting line were far enough back on the straightaway that the stagger for the outside lane was also on the straightaway. Then all athletes would run two complete turns, and thus in a 400m all runners would run two complete semi-circles. But since (on almost all tracks) runners in the outside lanes do not run two full semi-circles, rasb is correct.

But when you add the stagger to the distance run (400m), you do have two full semi-circles. Lap = stagger + 400 - that's what stagger means by definition, since you're a stagger's worth ahead of the finish line and another 400 will bring you to it.. And since lap is also 2pi*total width of all lanes between you and the field + 400, it follows that stagger=2pi*total width of all lanes between you and the field, and Conor Dary is correct.