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The All-Time Non-USA Women [split]

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  • The All-Time Non-USA Women [split]

    So who progressed to the final?

    For the women:

    Heat 1
    1. Annegret Richter...GER
    2. Angela Bailey....CAN
    3. Sevatheda Fynes...BAH
    4. Christine Arron...FRA
    5. Shelly-Anne Fraser...JAM
    6. Silke Moeller...GER
    7. Juliet Cuthbert...JAM
    8. Melanie Paschke...GER
    9. Bev Macdonald...JAM
    10. Laurence Bily...FRA

    Heat 2
    1. Ewa Kasprzk...POL
    2. Aileen Bailey...JAM
    3. Barbel Wockel...GER
    4. Sherone Simpson...JAM
    5. Irina Privalova...RUS
    6. Kerron Stewart...JAM
    7. Mary Onyali....NIG
    8. Debbie Ferguson...BAH
    9. Kathy Cook...GBR
    10. Natalya Pomosnickova...RUS

    Heat 3
    1. Kelly-Ann Baptiste...TRI
    2. Heather Oaks...GBR
    3. Chandra Sturrup...BAH
    4. Zhanna Pintusevich Block...UKR
    5. Vernica Campbell Brown...JAM
    6. Heike Drechsler...GER
    7. Marita Koch...GER
    8. Pauline Davis...BAH
    9. Marie Jose Perec...FRA
    10. Lyudmila Kondrateyeva...RUS

    Heat 4
    1. Inge Helten...GER
    2. Kim Gaevert...BEL
    3. Ivet Lalova...BUL
    4. Merlene Ottey...JAM
    5. Marlies Gohr...GER
    6. Anelia Vetchernickova...BUL
    7. Renate Stecher...GER
    8. Yuliya Nesterenko...BLR
    9. Simone Facey...JAM
    10. Ingrid Aueswald-Lange...GER

  • #2
    Originally posted by Gabriella
    So who progressed to the final?

    For the women:

    Heat 1
    1. Annegret Richter...GER
    2. Angela Bailey....CAN
    3. Sevatheda Fynes...BAH
    4. Christine Arron...FRA
    5. Shelly-Anne Fraser...JAM
    6. Silke Moeller...GER
    7. Juliet Cuthbert...JAM
    8. Melanie Paschke...GER
    9. Bev Macdonald...JAM
    10. Laurence Bily...FRA

    Heat 2
    1. Ewa Kasprzk...POL
    2. Aileen Bailey...JAM
    3. Barbel Wockel...GER
    4. Sherone Simpson...JAM
    5. Irina Privalova...RUS
    6. Kerron Stewart...JAM
    7. Mary Onyali....NIG
    8. Debbie Ferguson...BAH
    9. Kathy Cook...GBR
    10. Natalya Pomosnickova...RUS

    Heat 3
    1. Kelly-Ann Baptiste...TRI
    2. Heather Oaks...GBR
    3. Chandra Sturrup...BAH
    4. Zhanna Pintusevich Block...UKR
    5. Vernica Campbell Brown...JAM
    6. Heike Drechsler...GER
    7. Marita Koch...GER
    8. Pauline Davis...BAH
    9. Marie Jose Perec...FRA
    10. Lyudmila Kondrateyeva...RUS

    Heat 4
    1. Inge Helten...GER
    2. Kim Gaevert...BEL
    3. Ivet Lalova...BUL
    4. Merlene Ottey...JAM
    5. Marlies Gohr...GER
    6. Anelia Vetchernickova...BUL
    7. Renate Stecher...GER
    8. Yuliya Nesterenko...BLR
    9. Simone Facey...JAM
    10. Ingrid Aueswald-Lange...GER
    We'll determine the semi's /final later.

    That was cool, I can't do that :cry: Curious about the final there.

    Comment


    • #3
      For the women, I would propose the following qualifiers from each heat (and in this case Heat 4 was heavily loaded):

      Heat 1

      Annegret Richter
      Christine Arron
      Shelly-Anne Fraser
      Silke Möller

      Heat 2

      Bärbel Wöckel
      Sherone Simpson
      Irina Privalova
      Kerron Stewart

      Heat 3

      Veronica Campbell Brown
      Heike Drechsler
      Marita Koch
      Lyudmila Kondrateyeva

      Heat 4

      Inge Helten
      Merlene Ottey
      Marlies Göhr
      Renate Stecher

      Mostly GER v JAM, with a bit of RUS.

      Comment


      • #4
        There's some big names missing from that women's lineup - from first glance, Irena Szewinska, Katrin Krabbe and Raelene Boyle are all absent for a start!

        Comment


        • #5
          I purposely did not pick athletes who served bans, so no Krabbe. I also had to try and balance history vs performance vs best time. It'd be too easy to just look at PB's or titles, so I tried to do a combination of all. I did consider Szewinska but I felt her PB was a bit too weak compared to others, however, she could well place in there instead of the likes of Baptiste or Fynes perhaps, or maybe Gaevert or Pashcke. I though tI'd save her for the 200 or 400 anyway :-)
          I completely forgot about Boyle.

          Comment


          • #6
            The result of the women's final, if held in Berlin or Munich, 25°C, dry track, +1m following wind and no false starts would of course be "Deutschland über Alles":

            (Brief summary of credentials shown adjacent to each athlete, just to show it might be possible)

            1st Marlies Göhr (World Champion 100m & 4x100m and World Record Holder 100m & 4x100m)
            2nd Renate Stecher (Olympic Champion 100m, 200m & 4x100m, World Record Holder 100m, 200m & 4x100m)
            3rd Marita Koch (World Champion 200m, World Record Holder 60m/200m/400m/4x100m)
            4th Annegret Richter (Olympic Champion 100m & 4x100m, World Record Holder 100m & 4x100m)
            5th Bärbel Wöckel (Double Olympic Champion 200m & 4x100m, World Record Holder 4x100m)
            6th Silke Möller (World Champion 100m, 200m & 4x100m, World Record Holder 4x100m)
            7th Heike Drechsler (World Silver Medallist 100m, Olympic Bronze Medallist 100m & 200m, World Record Holder 200m)
            8th Inge Helten (Olympic Bronze Medallist 100m, World Record Holder 100m)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Rob
              The result of the women's final, if held in Berlin or Munich, 25°C, dry track, +1m following wind and no false starts would of course be "Deutschland über Alles":

              (Brief summary of credentials shown adjacent to each athlete, just to show it might be possible)

              1st Marlies Göhr (World Champion 100m & 4x100m and World Record Holder 100m & 4x100m)
              2nd Renate Stecher (Olympic Champion 100m, 200m & 4x100m, World Record Holder 100m, 200m & 4x100m)
              3rd Marita Koch (World Champion 200m, World Record Holder 60m/200m/400m/4x100m)
              4th Annegret Richter (Olympic Champion 100m & 4x100m, World Record Holder 100m & 4x100m)
              5th Bärbel Wöckel (Double Olympic Champion 200m & 4x100m, World Record Holder 4x100m)
              6th Silke Möller (World Champion 100m, 200m & 4x100m, World Record Holder 4x100m)
              7th Heike Drechsler (World Silver Medallist 100m, Olympic Bronze Medallist 100m & 200m, World Record Holder 200m)
              8th Inge Helten (Olympic Bronze Medallist 100m, World Record Holder 100m)
              I'm not so sure about your "German champs" order!

              For a start, I think Koch is far too high. Koch has four sub 11's, but none of them were wins. Her 10.83 PB was set behind Gohr's 10.81, she was then beaten by Goher 10.94 vs 10.97 in '85; by Gohr 10.93 vs 10.99 in '80 and then 10.83 vs 10.99 in 83. Her next best was a third place behind Gohr (10.91) and Wockel (10.95) in 82 where she ran 11.01. All these runs were inside the GDR too, her best run outside the iron curtain was her Helsinki silver outside 11 secs and behind Gohr in 83.
              Wockel herself was soundly beaten by Gohr in Dresden when she ran 11.02 to Gohr's 10.87 but there isn't enough depth in Wiockel's performances IMO to warrant being placed so highly either.
              Drechsler's fastest 100m were outside the GDR (Moscow & Oslo) and she also set sub 11 runs in Rome, Stockholm and Seoul. She has 11 sub 11secs runs compared to Koch's 4, and outranks Koch on 100m medals. She also has a greater win-loss record against Gohr, beating her in Dresden in 88 (10.92 for HD vs 11.06 for Moeller and 11.06 for Gohr) and Dresden in 86 (10.94 for HD vs 11.02 for Gohr) as well as the SF in Rome and Neubrandenberg in 88. Gohr's only win against HD in her career was in Potsdam in 88, 10.94 vs 10.99.
              Drechsler also has a greater win-loss record over Moller, the latter only finishing above Drechsler twice (11.15 to 11.20 in 87 and then the Roma final) Moller also has 'only' 6 sub 11 runs. HD ranked above Moller in 86, 88, 91 and 92. Moller only ranked above her in 87. 1990 depends on which rankings you follow. Moller also has a poor record against Gohr. Moller's saving grace is her Rome gold, but she failed to advance to the final in Seoul and missed out on a medal in Stuttgart 86. On the other hand, Drechsler medalled at the worlds and Olympics.

              Comment


              • #8
                Gabriella, firstly I am pleased to see someone who has an excellent knowledge of the GDR sprint scene and corresponding performances achieved, also articulated in a convincing manner.

                Having said that, I would like to see your reorganisation of the above order to see how your arguments vis-a-vis times recorded translate into actual results, assuming all athletes are competing at their best.

                In some respects you seem to be suggesting that Drechsler is better than Göhr, which can't be the case(?). You are maybe aware of the issues during the 80s in "Sprint City GDR" (Jena), where Drechsler was looked upon quite disparagingly by the DVfL sprint squad, as she wasn't a 'true' sprinter (and that was by her own teammates). You also have to consider competitiveness over the 100m distance, and in my view Drechsler's record is too short-lived and intermittent, as she was primarily a long jumper, with occasional forays mid-career into 200m and, to a lesser extent, 100m.

                Purely on grounds of "competitive tenacity" (which I appreciate is somewhat subjective), I placed Koch and Wöckel higher than their raw 100m times would ordinarily justify. In my view they both have a sufficiently large haul of medals from Major Championships to warrant a high finishing order.

                Arguably, the best claim to occupying the no. 1 position goes to Stecher, but I gave it to Göhr on grounds of longevity, which may, or may not, have any value in this sort of fantasy line-up...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Rob
                  Gabriella, firstly I am pleased to see someone who has an excellent knowledge of the GDR sprint scene and corresponding performances achieved, also articulated in a convincing manner.

                  Having said that, I would like to see your reorganisation of the above order to see how your arguments vis-a-vis times recorded translate into actual results, assuming all athletes are competing at their best.

                  In some respects you seem to be suggesting that Drechsler is better than Göhr, which can't be the case(?). You are maybe aware of the issues during the 80s in "Sprint City GDR" (Jena), where Drechsler was looked upon quite disparagingly by the DVfL sprint squad, as she wasn't a 'true' sprinter (and that was by her own teammates). You also have to consider competitiveness over the 100m distance, and in my view Drechsler's record is too short-lived and intermittent, as she was primarily a long jumper, with occasional forays mid-career into 200m and, to a lesser extent, 100m.

                  Purely on grounds of "competitive tenacity" (which I appreciate is somewhat subjective), I placed Koch and Wöckel higher than their raw 100m times would ordinarily justify. In my view they both have a sufficiently large haul of medals from Major Championships to warrant a high finishing order.

                  Arguably, the best claim to occupying the no. 1 position goes to Stecher, but I gave it to Göhr on grounds of longevity, which may, or may not, have any value in this sort of fantasy line-up...
                  Hi Rob, many thanks for the compliment.

                  I know, I didn't put my order - I should have! I would still keep Gohr top, because of her long and distinguished record. She was amazingly consistent and has numerous great marks. My point about HD vs Gohr really is that Drechsler has a better win/loss record. She also beat her in 86, when Gohr was still very strong. However, I do understand that Gohr was injured for much of 87 and not in vintage form in 88 (althoug she still ran 10.89!) I think HD had great competitive mettle, she went from 6th at 50m to 2nd in Rome, beating women who had better SB's (Ottey & Nuneva) and battled her way to bronze in Seoul. When she did focus more on the sprints, she beat her countrywomen.
                  Over 100m Wockel for me still doesnt quite merit a high ranking, I'd have her lower. Moller has one really good season; the rest she is easily outranked by Drechsler.

                  For this purely German topic, I'd still put Gohr top, but I'd leapfrog HD a couple of places and drop Koch one or two. Moller remains in the lower end.

                  However, I dont agree it would have been an all-German final though, I see Fraser and Stewart at the very least muscling their way in :-)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yes, I think it fairly unlikely that we would see an all German final, although on a case-by-case basis I thought each 'candidate' had a reasonable claim to reach the final.

                    How do you rate the prowess of Richter and Helten against the GDR machine (obviously based on their '76 form)?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      For Rob and Gabriella, a two-part question:

                      As selectors for the all-time German team, which three sprinters do you take?
                      A) based on career merit;
                      B) based on maximum potential.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        All these German sprinters are hard to order. Gohr had the career and the dominance - GDR no1 every year from 1977 to 1985 - but ranking Drechsler and Gladisch is made harder by the fact that they each had one year where their performances rose to unique heights. Drechsler's sprinting was strangely at its best in her first year of taking the descipline seriously, 86, and she was never able to hit those heights again. In the case of Gladisch, her 100m sprinting in the 87 Worlds was the equal of anything the world had seen prior to Flojo in 88, but was strictly a one-off.

                        I would still like to see Krabbe there - had her career developed, she could have been the greatest German 100m runner of all. I know she was banned, but it's a moot point that she was doing anything all the rest of the world's best sprinters haven't. I t hink she may have been the only one with the ability and temperament to beat Gohr, sho otherwise has to be no.1.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dj
                          For Rob and Gabriella, a two-part question:

                          As selectors for the all-time German team, which three sprinters do you take?
                          A) based on career merit;
                          B) based on maximum potential.
                          With a choice of any German sprinter, from any generation, my answer would actually be the same for both parts of your question:

                          Göhr, Stecher and Krabbe.

                          Unbeatable. 8-)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Gabriella
                            I purposely did not pick athletes who served bans, so no Krabbe. I also had to try and balance history vs performance vs best time. It'd be too easy to just look at PB's or titles, so I tried to do a combination of all. I did consider Szewinska but I felt her PB was a bit too weak compared to others, however, she could well place in there instead of the likes of Baptiste or Fynes perhaps, or maybe Gaevert or Pashcke. I though tI'd save her for the 200 or 400 anyway :-)
                            I completely forgot about Boyle.
                            A bit too weak? You say you are trying to balance history with performance, but unless I'm missing something here, it seems you are either applying several different standards at once, or applying a standard, made for one era, to another.

                            If I'm not mistaken, Szewińska had the FAT WR at 11.20 for a good single day in Mexico City, before Tyus ran 11.08 the next day. But Szewińska's 11.19 for bronze (which I think was her PR, unless i missed something) was certainly not slow for 1968. I would have included her in your group...

                            ...As a matter of fact, I would also have included Fanny Blankers-Koen, who ran 11.5 on no less than 3 occasions, her last in 1952, at age 34. Consider the era in which she ran this fast.

                            Raelene Boyle, yes. 4th in '68, 2nd in '72. And considering some of the names you have on this list, let us consider Chi Cheng as well.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              As for the list you do have, here are my semifinalists:

                              Heat 1: Fraser, Richter, Arron, Möller.

                              Heat 2: Stewart, Privalova, Simpson, Ferguson-McKenzie.

                              Heat 3: Koch, Campbell-Brown, Block, Drechsler
                              [Damnedest tough choice I had to make between Sturrup and Block. I even considered knocking off VCB. Drechsler was in, any way I looked at it.]

                              Heat 4: Ottey, Göhr, Stecher, Auerswald.
                              [Another tough choice for that 4th spot.]

                              Obviously this is poised to be Jamaica vs. GDR, yes?

                              Comment

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