Really All-Time Points Leaders

[jsquire]

With some research into the pre-T&FN years, here are the all-time rankings points leaders from 1900 to present.

Most Points
89 Noureddine Morceli
77 Hicham El Guerrouj
74 Kip Keino
67 Steve Cram
66 Glenn Cunningham
66 Steve Scott
65 Said Aouita
64 John Walker
60 Paavo Nurmi
60 Steve Ovett

(rest of US leaders)
56 Joie "Chesty" Ray
47 Jim Ryun
44 Dyrol Burleson
33.5 Gene Venzke
30 Marty Liquori
29 Sydney Maree
25 Archie San Romani
24 Charles Fenske
24 Jim Grelle


Most #1 rankings
7 Morceli
6 El Guerrouj
5 Cram
4 Nurmi
3 Walker, Ovett, Gunder Hagg, Jack Lovelock, Peter Snell

(US leaders)
2 Cunningham, Ryun, Liquori


For years prior to 1947, I ranked a world's top three, and filled out the top ten from the world list (the half point for Ray came from a tie on the world list). Not a very good system for places 4-10, but it's the best I got.

For 1943-45 and 1900-19 (except for 1908 and 1912) I ranked only five and scored it 5-4-3-2-1.

Just thought it might be interesting.

[Guest]

Re: Really All-Time Points Leaders

What criteria did you use for ranking these runners?

Clay

[jsquire]

Re: Really All-Time Points Leaders

Exactly the same as T&FN's world rankings criteria.

[parkerclay]

Re: Really All-Time Points Leaders

What I meant was..where did you get ranking points for Nurmi?

[jsquire]

Re: Really All-Time Points Leaders

For 1947 to present, I used T&FN's world rankings as-is.

From 1921 to 1946 (years for which I have relatively detailed information) I created a top ten by ranking the world's top three and then using the world list for ranks 4 through 10. (For this event, I combined the 1500 & mile world lists.) Prior to 1921 I just used the world list. In 1900-1907, 1909-1911, 1913-1919, and 1943-1945, I scored only five deep on a 5-4-3-2-1 basis.

Nurmi's rankings were as follows:
1921 #2 (ran year's best times but bombed in the biggest race)
1922 #1 (undefeated)
1923 #1 (undefeated, beat #2, set WR)
1924 #1 (undefeated, won OG, set WR)
1925 #1 (undefeated)
1926 #2 (lost only to Peltzer and Wide; winning record v Wide)
1927 #9 (based on world list)

My source for both world lists and Nurmi's complete seasonal records for 1921 through 1928 is "Track & Field Perfomances Through the Years, Vol. 4", published by ATFS and available through the IAAF.

Nurmi was quite accomplished at the 1500/mile, and I'd say it was only his third best event (after the 10k and 5k).

[dj]

Re: Really All-Time Points Leaders

What happens to the all-time lists if you revise your five-deep scoring from 5-4-3-2-1 to 10-9-8-7-6?

[jsquire]

Re: Really All-Time Points Leaders

Chesty Ray, Arne Andersson, and Gunder Hagg get more points, and that's about it. The idea behind giving fewer points for those time periods is that there wasn't quite enough worldwide competition to warrant a full ten-deep ranking; T&FN has done so at times.

But to answer your question directly:

89 Noureddine Morceli
81 Chesty Ray
77 Hicham El Guerrouj
74 Kip Keino
67 Steve Cram
66 Glenn Cunningham
66 Steve Scott
65 Said Aouita
64 John Walker
60 Paavo Nurmi
60 Steve Ovett

Andersson and Hagg still don't make the top ten, and a runner most fans never heard of goes to #2 -- and he earned most of his points while the rest of the track & field world was busy in WWI.

[jsquire]

Re: Really All-Time Points Leaders

To continue for the 5000 meters:

Most Points
113 Paavo Nurmi
82 Emil Zatopek
70 Haile Gebreselassie
66.5 Lauri Lehtinen
66 Lauri Virtanen
59 Ron Clarke
55 Harald Norpoth
54 Kip Keino
52 Ville Ritola
51 Murray Halberg

(US leaders)
27 Marty Liquori
27 Greg Rice
22 Sydney Maree
21 Steve Prefontaine
17 Doug Padilla
12.5 Earle Johnson
12 Bob Kennedy
10 Bob Schul
9 Ralph Hill
9 Gerry Lindgren
9 John Romig

Most #1 rankings
7 Nurmi
5 Zatopek, Gebreselassie, Halberg, Said Aouita

(US leaders)
1 Liquori, Schul


Two patterns emerge: the Flying Finns of the 20s, 30s, and 40s were quite dominant (supplying 4 of the top 10 and 3 of the top 5), and the USA has never been much of a factor.

[parkerclay]

Re: Really All-Time Points Leaders

Who are the highest all-time points leaders in all of t&f? Lewis? Nurmi? Bubka? I'd like to see that list

[jsquire]

Re: Really All-Time Points Leaders

I'm working on it -- my files need some updating and re-editing. Nurmi will probably top 300 points. He's got 60 in the 1500/mile, 113 in the 5k, probably nearly 100 in the 10k, and was also one of the top steeplechasers of his time (although he rarely ran it). I'll have to check my files, but various reports have him running a marathon in 1932, either a time trial or the Finnish Oly trials, which could earn him a few more points. Lewis has 342 points total, which is tough to beat. As far as the most points in a single event, that's still way up in the air (but Lewis is our current leader with 148 in the LJ).

My files currently only go back to 1900, and are only truly reliable from 1921 to present. They are constantly changing as I get my hands on new info.

[jsquire]

Re: Really All-Time Points Leaders

10,000 meter scoring leaders:

103 Paavo Nurmi
86 Haile Gebreselassie
79 Emil Zatopek
64 Ron Clarke
63 Ilmari Salminen
58 Paul Tergat
54 Pyotr Bolotnikov
51 Viljo Heino
49 Miruts Yifter
48 Salvatore Antibo, Eric Backman, Khalid Skah

(US leaders)
30 Frank Shorter
23 Mark Nenow
18 Billy Mills, Craig Virgin
11 Bruce Bickford
9 Lewis Tewanima
7 William Kramer
6 Gerry Lindgren
5 Curt Stone, Max Truex

Most #1 rankings
8 Nurmi
7 Zatopek
6 Gebreselassie
5 Salminen
4 Clarke

(US leaders)
1 Billy Mills, Bruce Bickford

[jsquire]

Re: Really All-Time Points Leaders

Steeplechase scoring leaders:

No pre-1947 athletes made the top ten, so I see no reason to rewrite http://trackandfieldnews.com/archive/ra ... thlete.pdf
(note: Nurmi scored 14 points and a #1 ranking in 1922)

(US leaders)
75 Henry Marsh
29 Joe McCluskey
19 Brian Diemer
18 George Young
17 Harold Manning
14 Mark Croghan
13 Floyd Lochner
10 Horace Ashenfelter
8 Glen Dawson
7 John Gregorek, Mel Dalton, Michael DeVaney


Most #1 rankings
6 Moses Kiptanui
5 Gaston Roelants
3 Bronislaw Malinowsky, Henry Marsh, Erik Elmsater, Volamri Iso-Hollo

(US leaders)
3 Marsh
1 Ashenfelter, Manning

Nurmi totals 300 points exactly, with 20 #1 rankings. Well short of Lewis' 342 points/28 #1 rankings. You can argue about a lot of things, but it seems indesputable that Carl Lewis had the greatest career in track & field history.

Note: If you, like I, believe that T&FN should eliminate Ben Johnson from their 1987 rankings, Lewis goes to 343 points and 29 #1 rankings.

[jsquire]

Re: Really All-Time Points Leaders

One more, the long jump:

Points leaders
148 Carl Lewis
118 Igor Ter-Ovanesyan
111 Larry Myricks
92 Ralph Boston
89 Ivan Pedroso
86 Mike Powell
63 Arne Robinson
60 William DeHart Hubbard
58 James Beckford
53 Erick Walder

(US leaders, ctd)
52 Greg Bell
44 Mike Conley, Ed Gordon
40 Jesse Owens, Willie Steele

Most #1 rankings
10 Lewis
8 Boston
6 Hubbard
4 Arne Robinson, Owens, Steele

[parkerclay]

Re: Really All-Time Points Leaders

No disrespect to your rankings but I am having a hard time believing Pedroso was better than Powell!

[gh]

Re: Really All-Time Points Leaders

Those aren't Squire's rankings, those are T&FN's. They don't say Pedroso was "better" than Powell (although with 5 straight world indoor titles and 4 straight outdoors one might make that case). They simply say that Pedroso earned more points thorugh the years than Powell did.

This is largely explained by the fact that Pedroso first ranked in the year in which he turned 20, while Powell didn't make it until he was 22.