Olympic 1,500m - disappointment!

[gh]

Re: Olympic 1,500m - disappointment!

By definition (well, mine at least!) there is no such thing as a disappointing Olympic 1500--or any other event for that matter. There are ones that don't turn out remotely as you figured, and perhaps your personal favorite comes to grief, but when all is said and done, each is a gem. Even Peter Rono's!

[Tustin Flash]

Re: Olympic 1,500m - disappointment!

>I don't see it. Look at it this way, would Elliott have beaten Keino in Mexico?
>No! Would the Elliott of Rome 1960 have beaten the Keino of 1968 at sea-level.
>Yes, because, if not, Keino must be considered a greater 1500m man than
>Elliott, and they're not many how would agree with that. Keino, what ever pace
>he set, would not dropped Ryun at sea-level in 1968, and he certainly wouldn't
>have out-kicked Jim at the end.

I agree with what you say above...but, you missed my point: The Ryun of '68 can't be compared to Elliott of '60 simply because Elliott was having a great year in '60, while Ryun had a mediocre year in '68. So, the reason Ryun would not have beaten Keino at sea-level in'68 was not because he wasn't a superior athlete at 1500m/mile, but because he was having a sub-par year...his form was not near his '67 form.

[FrankS]

Re: Olympic 1,500m - disappointment!

Running 3.37 at altitude is great. Now, I know it's difficult to make a proper accessment, but can anyone out there give me an idea what 3.37 at altitude - by a non-altitude athlete - is equivalent to at sea-level?

[gh]

Re: Olympic 1,500m - disappointment!

All depends who you are. i.e., how your physiology adapts to (or is suited for from the ground up) altitude. Relative to Keino, I think you can make the case that Mexico City had zero effect on his ability to run the 1500. His altitude-born-and-trained body was able to function normally in the rarified air.

[tandfman]

Re: Olympic 1,500m - disappointment!

>By definition (well, mine at least!) there is no such thing as a disappointing Olympic 1500--or any other event for that matter. There are ones that don't turn out remotely as you figured, and perhaps your personal favorite comes to grief, but when all is said and done, each is a gem. Even Peter Rono's!<

I totally agree. The subject line of this thread--Olympic 1500m - disappointment--is an oxymoron.

[FrankS]

Re: Olympic 1,500m - disappointment!

Well, what we have to do is say, " Why were they disappointing, and can we do anything to change that situation?".
a. The clash between 1500m/5000m is a problem and has caused "disappointing" Olympic 1500 finals i.e. absence of Jazy, Aquita etc. Now, what can be done about that? I realise that at the 2003 World Championships it was possible to run both - but the schedule is very demanding.
b. Choice of site. Mexico was a stupid choice - but didn't they plan to make the same mistake and have the World Championships there?
c. Athletes - particularly real contenders -falling over. This can spoil the whole event! There must be a better way. I want to see all the best guys in the final. Imagine 1972, with Ryun in the final - it would have been a far more interesting race.
d. Injuries. The UK, for example, is getting its act together and have now got a place were athletes can train and receive " on the spot" help with injuries. Imagine Liquori in the 1972 final - along with Ryun.
e. Get all the best athletes to the games. Have "wild cards" for great athletes who - for one reason or the other- don't get selected.
f. Smaller fields.
If all the above had been sorted out, the 1988 final might have inclued Abdi Bile, Aquita and Coe.

[malmo]

Re: Olympic 1,500m - disappointment!

>>Keino's 1968 was fantastic BUT, at sea-level, even if he had run 3.30,>Ryun >would have beaten him! I'd stake my house on that!
>.As much of a Jim>Ryun fan that I am...I don't think so. Ryun ran as well as could be expected in
>'68...actually with all the problems he had that year (a case of mono,
>hamstring injury and more) and with the altitude thrown in, he did well to win
>the silver.If it was 1967, then I agree with you.


Let's see, I'd think that Keino would have better recovery at sea level and still have beaten Ryun soundly. Recovery? From running the 10000 AND the 5000, before making a last minute decision to compete in the 1500 and making Olympic history.

Ryun had mono and hamstring injuries in 1968? So what? Keino had gallstone problems DURING the 68 Games!

[FrankS]

Re: Olympic 1,500m - disappointment!

Was Ryun in such poor form in Mexico? 3.37 at altitude must translate to a much faster time at sea-level so let's, for example, take off a second per lap (remembering also that, unlike Keino, Jim didn't run all out down the final straight). Suddenly, Ryun is in 3.33/34 form. Which means that he wasn't in poor form at all. . Also, Tummler was in great form. He ran 3.36-1500m/3.53 - mile before the games, and as he was peaking for the games was probably in 3.34/35 form in Mexico. Interestly, this was one of the few Olympic 1500m finals were the recognised best three runners filled the medal spots - BUT in the wrong order!

[eldrick]

Re: Olympic 1,500m - disappointment!

>All depends who you are. i.e., how your physiology adapts to (or is suited for
>from the ground up) altitude. Relative to Keino, I think you can make the case
>that Mexico City had zero effect on his ability to run the 1500. His
>altitude-born-and-trained body was able to function normally in the rarified
>air.

garry, i must humbly disagree with you there

altitude training, pumps out EPO, so you have more haemoglobin to extract more O2 out of the thin air & hence the advantage over the sea-level trained guy

at sea-level,for the altitude guy, his raised haemoglobin will allow him to extract even more O2 out of the "rich" air & will run faster than at altitude

in a nutshell,it's inevitable in his 3'34A form,kip would have run faster at sea-level.how much faster? big question - it'll take a guy a helluva lot smarter than me to work it out, but it's safe to say, it would have been quicker than 3'33 ( but remember i did say ryun's 3'33 was worth low 3'29, so kip running something like 3'30+ shouldn't upset ryun fans)

[eldrick]

Re: Olympic 1,500m - disappointment!

>I don't see it. Look at it this way, would Elliott have beaten Keino in Mexico?
>No! Would the Elliott of Rome 1960 have beaten the Keino of 1968 at sea-level.
>Yes, because, if not, Keino must be considered a greater 1500m man than
>Elliott, and they're not many how would agree with that. Keino, what ever pace
>he set, would not dropped Ryun at sea-level in 1968, and he certainly wouldn't
>have out-kicked Jim at the end.

not sure of your logic here - both elliot & kip were OG champs, elliot of course unbeaten

if your talking about a sea-level race, it's fairly safe to say kip's 3'34A was worth a lot quicker at sea-level ( i don't believe anyone has to this day run a faster 1500 at altitude).
for argument's sake lets say it was worth 3'30 - 3'31. then for elliot to have beaten the '68 kip, you would have to argue the ellliot of '60 was capable of 3'30 (or better)- i'm afraid i don't buy it

[buckeye II]

Re: Olympic 1,500m - disappointment!

Brian, provide an e-mail and I can hook you up with a Supermilers tape.

-buckeye II

[FrankS]

Re: Olympic 1,500m - disappointment!

The more one thnks about Keino's run, the more peculiar it becomes. If it was equivalent to, say, 3.30 then that's amazing because that time wasn't broken until 1985 - 17 years after Mexico! The problem here is, that if Keino's run - as an altitude athlete - is worth 3/4 sec more, then Ryun's and Tummler's times must be worth 6/7 secs more. Which brings us full circle i.e. at sea-level Ryun would have won! Because Ryun would not have let Keino get away, and would have beaten him in a last lap tussle.

[Brian]

Re: Olympic 1,500m - disappointment!

>Brian, provide an e-mail and I can hook you up with a Supermilers
>tape.

-buckeye II

Buckeye,
Thank you!
[email protected]

-Brian

[Brian]

Re: Olympic 1,500m - disappointment!

Oooppps! Sorry.
I meant "Buckeye ll."
Please apologize to your father for me.

[Brian]

Re: Olympic 1,500m - disappointment!

>All depends who you are. i.e., how your physiology adapts to (or is suited for
>from the ground up) altitude.

I tend to agree.

When I was visiting Alamosa one time, Coach Joe Vigil told me a distance time run at altitude depends on many variables as far as conversion, mostly whether or not the person was adequately acclimated, the actual time spent at that altitude (differs with the person over various time periods, four weeks, four months, four years, etc.), and the person themself when it comes to their individual talent.

I asked him about this after watching Par Porter run a sub-4:00 mile on a legit course in Alamosa right before the CC nationals. The time, with a standard conversion of 9+ seconds, would have put Porter near Steve Scott's American record on the track. As Coach Vigil explained, it would be less for Porter, because of his high oxygen utilization and years of living at the 7544 feet.

As I think Malmo and others would readily agree, the only thing we can absolutely know is what happened in front of us that day. The rest is pleasant speculation for us Tracknuts.