Help. Trying to find the history of HS and NCAA TAF records

[Rye Catcher]

Where might I look to find this information? My main interests are the shot and discus.

[tandfman]

Re: Help. Trying to find the history of HS and NCAA TAF reco

You're going to find that very hard. There are no official HS records other than those kept by the National Federation, and they include only meets conducted by the various state HS federations, not the end-of-season meets like Golden West or the North Carolina meet. They also don't recognize marks set by HS students in open competition.

The NCAA historically kept only Championship Meet records.

I don't know of any source, in print or online, for historical progressions of HS and NCAA records, as you would probably recognize them.

[Rye Catcher]

Re: Help. Trying to find the history of HS and NCAA TAF reco

You're going to find that very hard. There are no official HS records other than those kept by the National Federation, and they include only meets conducted by the various state HS federations, not the end-of-season meets like Golden West or the North Carolina meet. They also don't recognize marks set by HS students in open competition.

The NCAA historically kept only Championship Meet records.

I don't know of any source, in print or online, for historical progressions of HS and NCAA records, as you would probably recognize them.

That is really sad. Jack Shepherd may have HS records back to some date.

[mcgato]

Re: Help. Trying to find the history of HS and NCAA TAF reco

You're going to find that very hard. There are no official HS records other than those kept by the National Federation, and they include only meets conducted by the various state HS federations, not the end-of-season meets like Golden West or the North Carolina meet. They also don't recognize marks set by HS students in open competition.

I would guess that it would also be hard to figure out what to do with 20+ year olds who were still high school students, as was somewhat common last century.

[gh]

Re: Help. Trying to find the history of HS and NCAA TAF reco

...
The NCAA historically kept only Championship Meet records. ..

Actually, until (guessing some point in the '80s) the NCAA also kept Collegiate Records. They're findable in the Spalding Guides from the '20s on until the NCAA took over.

[gm]

Re: Help. Trying to find the history of HS and NCAA TAF reco

...
The NCAA historically kept only Championship Meet records. ..

Actually, until (guessing some point in the '80s) the NCAA also kept Collegiate Records. They're findable in the Spalding Guides from the '20s on until the NCAA took over.

From my handy-dandy 1981 NCAA Track & Field manual --

National Collegiate Records
Made by undergraduate collegiate competitors from four-year degree granting institutions, representing a varsity team of their institution or a United States national team, and accepted by the Track and Field Committee of the NCAA...yada yada yada...

...also said collegians were such throughout their four years of competition, including summer vacations, and through September 1 following graduation, or through the end of the Olympic Games if they went later.

[gh]

Re: Help. Trying to find the history of HS and NCAA TAF reco

what was different in those days was "amateurism"; T&FN for many years now has only recognized CRs made through the NCAA Championships. It's ridiculous (IOHU) to be giving "collegiate" records to people who have pro contracts.

Note that the USTFCCCA agrees with our stance, and the NCAA is the cutoff for consideration of the Bowerman Award.

[tandfman]

Re: Help. Trying to find the history of HS and NCAA TAF reco

what was different in those days was "amateurism"; T&FN for many years now has only recognized CRs made through the NCAA Championships. It's ridiculous (IOHU) to be giving "collegiate" records to people who have pro contracts.

Note that the USTFCCCA agrees with our stance, and the NCAA is the cutoff for consideration of the Bowerman Award.

The problem with that approach, of course, is that it excludes from consideration performances made by athletes who are still in college and compete after the NCAA championships (e.g., in the USATF and World Championships) and then go back to school and compete again for their school. They cannot have pro contracts and still compete for their colleges. In common parlance, college students who have not graduated are still considered college students on their summer break. If they haven't signed pro contracts, why shouldn't they be considered collegians for record purposes?

But of course the problem with a cutoff that extended beyond the NCAA meet is that you might not know whether you have a collegiate record until perhaps 7-9 months later, when you know that the athlete has returned to college competition. Athletes can certainly be running as a pro in Europe all summer without formally announcing that they've signed a contract and beomce a pro. So you'd often not be able to recognize something as a college record at the time it's made or, if you did, you might have to rescind that recognition at a later time.

I don't know that there is a right answer.

PS - If the Bowerman award doesn't recognize anything that happens after the NCAA championships, why don't they announce the winner then? They announced the semifinalists after the recent NCAA meet. If they're truly ignoring post-NCAA performances, nothing can possibly change now. Why bother with this semi-final stage.

[Mighty Favog]

Re: Help. Trying to find the history of HS and NCAA TAF reco

Intrigued by this, and armed with a few resources, I'm working on a collegiate records progression (using the current definition of a CR). As I get them done I'll post them and those with more resources can nit-pick and find my errors.

[Mighty Favog]

Re: Help. Trying to find the history of HS and NCAA TAF reco

Starting with the long jump, the easiest to compile...

Indoor and outdoor combined. Those in bold were ratified as world records. Low-altitude marks in italics.

7.29 23' 11" Alvin Kraenzlein (Penn) 4/29/1899 Philadelphia PA
7.40 24' 3½" Alvin Kraenzlein (Penn) 4/29/1899 Philadelphia PA
7.42 24' 4" Alvin Kraenzlein (Penn) 5/26/1899 Philadelphia PA
7.43 24' 4¼" Alvin Kraenzlein (Penn) 5/26/1899 Philadelphia PA
7.50 24' 7¼" Meyer Prinstein (Yale) 4/28/1900 Philadelphia PA
7.60 24' 11½" DeHart Hubbard (Michigan) 5/26/1923 Columbus OH
7.65 25' 1½" DeHart Hubbard (Michigan) 6/1/1923 Ann Arbor MI
7.67 25' 2" DeHart Hubbard (Michigan) 6/16/1923 Chicago IL
7.71 25' 3½" DeHart Hubbard (Michigan) 6/5/1925 Columbus OH
7.89 25' 10¾" DeHart Hubbard (Michigan) 6/13/1925 Chicago IL
8.13 26' 8¼" Jesse Owens (Ohio State) 5/25/1935 Ann Arbor MI
8.24 27' ½" Ralph Boston (Tennessee A&I) 5/27/1961 Modesto CA
8.24 27' ½" James McAlister (UCLA) 5/5/1973 Los Angeles CA
8.49i 27' 10¾" Carl Lewis (Houston) 2/20/1981 Fort Worth TX
8.74A 28' 8¼" Erick Walder (Arkansas) 4/2/1994 El Paso TX
8.56 28' 1" Kareem Streete-Thompson (Rice) 5/21/1995 New York NY
8.59i 28' 2¼" Miguel Pate (Alabama) 3/1/2002

[Marlow]

Re: Help. Trying to find the history of HS and NCAA TAF reco

8.13 26' 8¼" Jesse Owens (Ohio State) 5/25/1935
8.24 27' ½" Ralph Boston (Tennessee A&I) 5/27/1961

Is that a record (gap) for a record?

[Mighty Favog]

Re: Help. Trying to find the history of HS and NCAA TAF reco

No. Owens' record stood for 26 years. JJK's collegiate long jump record is at 26 years and still going.

[Mighty Favog]

Re: Help. Trying to find the history of HS and NCAA TAF reco

The original poster asked for shot put, so here's what I have. Much to my dismay, I seem to have misplaced my folder of shot put historical data, so what I have is likely incomplete in places, especially from 1950 to 1965. dj and anyone else, feel free to correct me where I'm missing things.

14.81 48' 7" Ralph Rose (Michigan) 5/21/1904 Chicago IL
15.08 49' 6" Glenn Hartranft (Stanford) 3/11/1922 Palo Alto CA
15.25 50' 1/4" Glenn Hartranft (Stanford) 3/18/1922 Palo Alto CA
15.53 50' 11 1/2" Glenn Hartranft (Stanford) 4/12/1924 Palo Alto CA
16.30 53' 6" Jack Torrance (LSU) 3/24/1934 Lafayette LA
16.32 53' 6 1/2" Jack Torrance (LSU) 4/21/1934 Baton Rouge LA
16.48 54' 1" John Lyman (Stanford) 4/21/1934 Palo Alto CA
16.80 55' 1 1/2" Jack Torrance (LSU) 4/27/1934 Des Moines IA
17.04 55' 11" Elmer Hackney (Kansas St.) 5/6/1939 Manhattan KS
17.08i 56' 1/2" Al Blozis (Georgetown) 6/21/1940 Minneapolis MN
17.22i 56' 6" Al Blozis (Georgetown) 3/1/1941 New York NY
17.22 56' 6" Al Blozis (Georgetown) 6/15/1941 New York NY
17.34i 56' 10 1/2" Charles Fonville (Michigan) 2/21/1948 Ann Arbor MI
17.68 58' 1/4" Charles Fonville (Michigan) 4/17/1948 Lawrence KS
17.82 58' 5 1/2" Jim Fuchs (Yale) 4/29/1950 Los Angeles CA
18.00 59' 3/4" Parry O'Brien (USC) 5/9/1953 Fresno CA
18.04 59' 2 1/4" Parry O'Brien (USC) 6/5/1953 Compton CA
18.30 Ken Bantum (Manhattan) 6/15/1956 Berkeley CA
18.41 Dave Davis (USC) 6/6/1958 Compton CA
19.67 64' 6 1/2" Dallas Long (USC) 3/26/1960 Los Angeles CA
20.08 65' 10 1/2" Dallas Long (USC) 5/18/1962 Los Angeles CA
20.70 67' 11 1/4" Randy Matson (Texas A&M) 4/9/1965 College Station TX
21.05 69' 3/4" Randy Matson (Texas A&M) 4/30/1965 Austin TX
21.52 70' 7 1/4" Randy Matson (Texas A&M) 5/8/1965 College Station TX
21.78 71-5½ Randy Matson (Texas A&M) 4/22/1967 College Station TX
21.85 71-8½ Terry Albritton (Hawaii) 2/21/1976 Honolulu HI
21.92 71-11 John Brenner (UCLA) 6/2/1984 Eugene OR
22.00 72-2¼ John Godina (UCLA) 6/3/1995 Knoxville TN